Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

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wdmarine
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Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by wdmarine »

Can the stock Max v3 and the stock Bondtech QR stepper motors run on 24v with a Duet Wifi board? If so, what changes do I need to make in which configuration?

I appreciate any help!
dc42
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by dc42 »

Like all other 3D printer boards, the Duets use constant current stepper drivers. This means that you do not need to change the motors or the motor settings in firmware when changing from 12V to 24V power.
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by wdmarine »

That does make sense. Thank you for the quick reply.

I am looking for 0.9 steppers, however I don't feel confident in making a decision on where and what to buy from lack of reviews on specific motors. I believe the stock motors are made by Wantai. I would like the quality of the replacement 0.9 motors to be as high.

I am looking at two possibilities so far (would love to have more):

1. 42JT47-1684A Jugetek Motors from www.ultibots.com
[url]https://www.ultibots.com/nema-17-0-9-degree-stepper-motor/[/url]

Does Jugetek make high quality motors?

Rated Voltage: 2.8V
Current Per Phase: 1.68A
Resistance Per Phase: 1.65Ω± 10%
Inductance Per Phase: 2.8mH± 20%
Number of Phase: 2
Insulation Class: Class B
Holding Torque: 4.4Kg.cm
Model number: 42JT47-1684A
Shaft: 5mm diameter w/ one flat
Insulation Resistance: 100Mohm
Operation Temp Range: -20 ~ +40° C
Lead Wire: 22AWG / 750mm
4 pin 2.54mm connector

2. Stepper Motors from www.sparkfun.com
[url]https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10846[/url]

Unfortunately I am not able find the make of these.
Also, they don't have a flat on the shaft, which I would prefer.

2-Phase
Rated Voltage: 3V
Rated Current: 1.7A/Phase
5mm Diameter Drive Shaft
Holding Torque: 48N.cm

As always, I very much appreciate any guidance and help.
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by dc42 »

I don't know those motors in particular. However, if you are looking for high travel speeds, when using the Duet WiFi or Duet Ethernet it's better to take advantage of the high current rating of the drivers and choose motors rated at 2A rather than 1.7A, because they will have lower inductance - assuming the same motor length.
wdmarine
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by wdmarine »

Thank you for the reply.

The only 2A 0.9 deg motors I could find on www.omc-stepperonline.com and on Amazon have an inductance of 3mH, while the 1.68A motors I found on www.ultibots.com have an inductance of 2.8mH. Further, the holding torque of the 2A is 46Ncm vs 44Ncm of the 1.68A motors.

Using the formula for calculating the maximum speed (as found on the Duet3d.com wiki) as:

max speed = (4 * pulley_teeth * supply_voltage)/(steps_per_rev * pi * inductance * current)

This gives a value of 254mm/s for the 2A motors and 325mm/s for the 1.68A motors.

So, unless I have got something wrong, it looks like the 1.68A motors have a higher max travel speed than the 2A and, I would assume, the 1.68A motors and the drivers would run cooler.
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by dc42 »

wdmarine wrote:Thank you for the reply.

The only 2A 0.9 deg motors I could find on http://www.omc-stepperonline.com and on Amazon have an inductance of 3mH, while the 1.68A motors I found on http://www.ultibots.com have an inductance of 2.8mH. Further, the holding torque of the 2A is 46Ncm vs 44Ncm of the 1.68A motors.

Using the formula for calculating the maximum speed (as found on the Duet3d.com wiki) as:

max speed = (4 * pulley_teeth * supply_voltage)/(steps_per_rev * pi * inductance * current)

This gives a value of 254mm/s for the 2A motors and 325mm/s for the 1.68A motors.

So, unless I have got something wrong, it looks like the 1.68A motors have a higher max travel speed than the 2A and, I would assume, the 1.68A motors and the drivers would run cooler.
If the figures you have quoted are all correct, then you are right. I am surprised that the 1.68A motors have lower inductance than the 2A motors for a very similar torque. It should be the other way round.
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by wdmarine »

I just noticed that the 1.6A motors have an inductance rating per phase, while the 2A doesn't mention phase. Is measuring induction per phase what is normal?
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by dc42 »

Yes, inductance is normally quoted per phase.
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by DeltaCon »

Wait...

Out of curiosity I checked my steppers: Wantai 42BYGHW811P2
I googled for specs: http://www.phidgets.com/documentation/Phidg ... asheet.pdf
Here it shows that they are rated for 2.5 Amps, which looks to be much higher then most others?

I checked the formula above but I get some nonsense value out of it (or I just don't understand it :geek: )
StepperCurrentFormula.png
What I do understand is that I am running my steppers way to low, is that correct?
I recently had some problems with missing steps on the extruder motor which I solved to up the current a bit. The motors do not get hot at all. My current current settings:

Code: Select all

M906 X1200 Y1200 Z1200 E1400 I60	; Set motor currents (mA); set each extruder explicitly
Should I up the current, if I do can I up my non print move speeds? How does this translate into optimal jerk and acceleration settings?

Code: Select all

M201 X1000 Y1000 Z1000 E1000		; Printing Accelerations (mm/s^2) Set all E-motors the same
M202 X2000 Y2000 Z2000 E1000		; Moving Accelerations (mm/s^2) Set all E-motors the same (Not sure it's used in DC42 Duet firmware!)
M203 X20000 Y20000 Z20000 E3600		; Maximum speeds (mm/min) Set all E-motors the same
M566 X1200 Y1200 Z1200 E1800		; Maximum instant speed changes mm/minute. Set all E-motors the same
EDIT: I am running a Duet 0.6 btw)
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
Rostock V2 / E3D Volcano / FSR kit / Duet 0.6

PS.: Sorry for the avatar, that's my other hobby!
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by dc42 »

Higher current will reduce the likelihood of missed steps. However, if you increase the current much above the 1.2A that you are already using, then you will need to use a fan to cool your Duet 0.6 board. The best arrangement is a fan that blows cool air along the line of drivers on both sides of the board.
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by DeltaCon »

dc42 wrote:Higher current will reduce the likelihood of missed steps. However, if you increase the current much above the 1.2A that you are already using, then you will need to use a fan to cool your Duet 0.6 board. The best arrangement is a fan that blows cool air along the line of drivers on both sides of the board.
Funny of you to mention this... When I first build in the Duet board, I used a self printed backplate with room for two 40mm fans.
Rostock Max V2 Duet Board Mount by paulver - Thingiverse.png
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1429433

I mounted the fans with the air direction pointing away from the board (which is a mistake). I saw the board temp during print pretty steady at about 40 to 42 degrees. Last week I made some upgrades on my machine, and also took out the board to turn over the fans. But I see no change in board temp while printing at all. What strikes me is that the webgui already says 40 degrees right after power up. So maybe that temp is not very accurate. What temp can the board endure without any problems?
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
Rostock V2 / E3D Volcano / FSR kit / Duet 0.6

PS.: Sorry for the avatar, that's my other hobby!
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by dc42 »

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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by DeltaCon »

Great info as usual, thanks. I never thought of this to need calibration ;-)
I am continuing my questions in a new thread because I feel it wanders off-topic too much here:
http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=12004
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
Rostock V2 / E3D Volcano / FSR kit / Duet 0.6

PS.: Sorry for the avatar, that's my other hobby!
dc42
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by dc42 »

The uncalibrated MCU temperature on the Duet WiFi and Duet Ethernet should be within 13C of the true temperature. For the Duet 06 and 085, it could be up to 45C off.
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Re: Stock Max v3 Motors on 24v?

Post by DeltaCon »

My Duet 0.6 was off about 15 degrees C. Thanks for the tip!
My setup is getting better every day ;-)
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
Rostock V2 / E3D Volcano / FSR kit / Duet 0.6

PS.: Sorry for the avatar, that's my other hobby!
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