Getting the most from your ezStruder

[joseph]

Gents,

First, I blamed the ezstruder! I have unsuccessfully installed an E3D hot end on my otherwise stock Rostock Max2, and when it failed to extrude (ABS)(2" then full stop), I started messing around with anything I could think of, including tweaking the ezstruder (that was grinding filament), messing with the firmware settings (can't remember what the heck I did), and rebuilding the E6D, which I did 3 times. Since both ends of the problem (hot vs cold ends) seem to be mechanically and electrically functional, after trying some of the mods suggested here, I am worried that settings in firmware might be bad. At the risk of posting this request in the wrong forum, I would invite anyone who knows to critique my settings or to direct me to a more appropriate forum. I have not included retraction settings, which are equally suspect, as this seemed a big ask:

This is step 1 in a search for reason that E3D mod won't work with ezstruder:
1) What is the amp setting for the stock Kysan stepper motor?

Are the following SeeMe settings correct? Do they apply to the extruder stepper?

-"stop stepper after inactivity" = 0
-"steps per mm" = 80
-"max feedrate" = 300
-"homing feedrate" = 120
-"max jerk" = 35

Then these:

"Extr.1 steps per mm" = 93.96
"Extr.1 max feedrate" = 100
"Extr.1 start feedrate" = 45
"Extr.1 acceleration" = 6500
"Extr.1 heat manager" = 1
"Extr.1 PID drive max" = 205
"Extr.1 PID drive min" = 60"
"Extr PID max value [0-255]" = 255
PID gain values have been derived from the calibration process and temps appear to be stable during warm up.

After very brief initial extrusion (2-3") either the hot end jams or the ezstruder starts grinding filament. Or both.

Any feedback will be appreciated.

[stonewater]

1- what is your hot end temp set to?

2- is your hotend really the temp the thermister is telling it? you need a thermocouple and a multi meter that can tell you the actual temp.

3- is the thermistor type value in EEPROM correct for the thermistor you were sent with the hot end.

with ABS it is rarely the EZstruder, its almost always a hot end issue.

Tom C

[joseph]

Tom,

temp setting: 220-225c

Rambo controller (#301 in Repetier)

thermistor setting # 8 (Semitec 104-gt2) in Repetier

PS: My version of Arduino is 1.0.6, but the current SeeMe build manual mentions downloading Arduino ver 1.6.1. Is it possible that the versions have incompatibilities? How do you update without nuking your settings?

[geneb]

Doing a firmware upload won't affect your EEPROM settings, unless of course the firmware you upload happens to be "eeprom_clear".

There's no incompatibilities between the two IDE versions that would have any effect on the firmware itself.

g.

[bvandiepenbos]

Your actual temperature is probably lower than firmware thinks it is.
Have you done a PID autotune after you installed E3D hot end? those values are likely very different from the stock hot end values.

If you have or can borrow a meter with temperature probe, check the actual nozzle temperature to the lcd readout.
I have had actual temp be 20-30c lower than readout. Even 5c can make a huge difference.

Also, the E3D will have more back-pressure than the stock hot end, no matter what you do.

Increase your temp in 5c increments to see if it helps, go all the way to 240c if needed.

Did you change slicer settings to match the new nozzle size?
SeeMe is .5, E3D is probably .4

[joseph]

bvan,

Thanks for your suggestion to tackle this as a hotend issue. Most people I have heard from have pointed in that direction, rather than the ezstruder, which worked fine until the conversion, and then it started grinding filament. Also, when I looked it over, I noticed that the red handle was badly aligned, and it wobbled. Your fixes seemed to stiffen things up, but I'm still grinding filament almost immediately upon startup. Plus the extruder motor runs pretty hot (firmware setting 165).

I did the PID autotune when the unit was completely rebuilt, and temps seemed stable. I tested the temperature with a multimeter probe, but the nozzle and the heatsink weren't installed and thus no filament in the system either. Both the thermistor and the heat probe temps were pretty volatile and didn't want to stabilize. I would guess there was at least a 5d difference (the probe lower), but I assumed that reflected the probe placement, which was inside of the nozzle cavity but not well secured. The probe temp varied wildly in different parts of the nozzle cavity.

I have actually gone to a .6 nozzle to see if it would ease the back pressure. But it gums up immediately anyway. Frankly, it acts like it's too cold.

Tomorrow (Sunday), I shall repeat each process with a clearer idea of detecting the real temperature and pushing it upwards to 240 or 245. My hunch is that your hunch is the nature of the problem.

[Polygonhell]

For what it's worth all the thermistors I have from E3D read about 20 C hotter than actual when using the recommended firmware table. So I suspect that's a part of the problem.
You can easily isolate this though, whenever I have extrusion issues, the first thing I do is pop off the Bowden tube at the hotend and feed the filament by hand to feel the force required. If it's hard to push through your printing too cold, if it's completely blocked there is something else wrong. While PLA like jams don't happen in ABS, it is possible to get a foreign body in the hotend that will block the orrifice usually very soon after starting.

[JFettig]

I got to play with my new Haas a little today and whipped up a couple of these plates to adapt the gear motor to the EZStruder. I designed it to use the 8mm Tridprinting hobbed drive gear with the Kysan gear motor they have listed. The plate has to be that thick to center the hobbed section on the path of the filament with it oriented with the screw in back since this gear is slightly larger than stock.

If anyone has any interest in these I can do a small run of these.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/qsqtMBJ.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/PowKU74.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ormPHgP.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/WBdJtDr.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/hE4gMdi.jpg[/img]

Hobbed gear: http://www.tridprinting.com/Mechanical- ... Drive-Gear" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Geared Kysan: http://www.tridprinting.com/Electronics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It should work with any Nema 17 gear motor with the same physical dims as the Kysan

[Tincho85]

That adapter looks awesome!
Nice work.

[joseph]

E6D Thermistor Test:

The multimeter temp probe, (Extech) of unknown accuracy, was inserted in the nozzle opening of the heat-block, which was packed with aluminum foil for insulation. there was no filament in the system.

Thermistor reading Multimeter reading variance

240 c 220-222 c 8.3 %

220 c 208-209 c 5.4 %

210 c 195- 196 c 7.1 %

200 c 186 c 7 %

All readings were confirmed twice. Can't explain the non-linear relationship, but this seems like a pretty big discrepancy.

[Polygonhell]

That's inline with what I see on everyone of my E3D thermistors using the specified firmware table.
I ended up using a custom thermistor, and tweaking the Beta value so the reported temperatures were more or less correct.

[bvandiepenbos]

That's inline with what I see on everyone of my E3D thermistors using the specified firmware table.
I ended up using a custom thermistor, and tweaking the Beta value so the reported temperatures were more or less correct.

custom thermistor or thermistor table?
What table did you use and what beta value worked?

[Polygonhell]

I use 97 as the thermistor type in the firmware, which is custom table 1.
The Beta value I'm using is 4725 which is what I ended up with by trial and error.

[ZakRabbit]

If anyone has any interest in these I can do a small run of these.

I may just have to take you up on one.

[JFettig]

I'll get some material on the way. I'll figure out pricing shortly.

[KAS]

I completely missed this post JFettig, looks awesome!

[joseph]

I use 97 as the thermistor type in the firmware, which is custom table 1.
The Beta value I'm using is 4725 which is what I ended up with by trial and error.

Did you make PID calibrations before you did this or after ?

[RMLynch]

I got to play with my new Haas a little today and whipped up a couple of these plates to adapt the gear motor to the EZStruder. I designed it to use the 8mm Tridprinting hobbed drive gear with the Kysan gear motor they have listed. The plate has to be that thick to center the hobbed section on the path of the filament with it oriented with the screw in back since this gear is slightly larger than stock.

If anyone has any interest in these I can do a small run of these.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/qsqtMBJ.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/PowKU74.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/ormPHgP.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/WBdJtDr.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/hE4gMdi.jpg[/img]

Hobbed gear: http://www.tridprinting.com/Mechanical- ... Drive-Gear" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Geared Kysan: http://www.tridprinting.com/Electronics/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It should work with any Nema 17 gear motor with the same physical dims as the Kysan

I'm interested in that mounting plate JFettig. Possibly two or three actually. Looks similar to Brian's.

I'm going to order that Hobbed Gear from Tridprinting (thanks for the URL) but I might get the Geared Kysan from http://www.3dmakerworld.com/geared-nema17-stepper-motor as it seems to have four times the torque. Although they look exactly the same. It's the one Brian mentioned at the beginning of this thread.

I really like the BerryBot extruder but it's quite pricey as seen here http://www.shopspt.com/product-p/sptgsm1.htm and with adapter http://www.shopspt.com/product-p/spt-bs.htm. It's very small though!

Anyways, anyone (looking at you Brian) think this geared setup won't work with Trick Laser's Fly-n-Strude? I figure that the size/weight difference should be minimal and getting the bowden tube as short as possible and close to the hot end is a must. Plan is to mount the geared stepper to EzStruder to Fly-n-Strude. Should work no?

I miss not having access to the machine shop anymore so would be greatful for some of your mounts please. If not, maybe Brian can machine some mounts for me?

Nice calipers JFettig. They look exactly like my TESA calipers (ETALON too). I think B&S bought out ETALON years ago. Either way, it's the best (Swiss made). I've Mitutoyo too (great stuff) but love my TESA/ETALON's.

[JFettig]

Sounds good RMLynch, I'm planning on whipping up a batch this weekend. I have all the metal ready to go.

That gear motor you're looking at appears to be the same, I think it has 4 times the torque because the rating posted on trid printing is the motor torque and the torque posted on 3dmakerworld might be the gearhead output torque.

I thought about doing a flying extruder to try out with this setup, it might work, the center of gravity is different than the stock motor - not sure how that would effect it.

I have had that caliper since 2004 and I love it, Still just as accurate as it was day one. I'll take a B&S caliper over Mitutoyo any day - the feel is just so much better.

[RMLynch]

Trying not to go off the "Extruding" topic here, but if anyone would be interested in a complete "remake" of the upper "Spool Assembly" let me know and I can post the files in .X_T, .STEP, .IGS, and of course the .STL's. Or if you like the original .SLDPRT files. I got the idea from other designs but felt it should be a complete "package" to just print and drop in. Only need a M8 x 1.25 x 190mm Threaded Rod, four (4) 608ZZ Bearings, one M8 Washer and one M8 Nylock Nut. I personally tap out the Nylock Nut(s) just a little (not through) with a tap to make them a little easier to turn yet retaining the "locking" fashion of it. The "Cones" have the needed geometry for setting the proper bearing preload. IE: They have the face reliefs in them. The "big" M8 Knob is optional, but it finishes it off IMHO.

I also am finishing up a "Filament Guide/Cleaner" that swivels to follow the "Fly-n-Strude" from Brian. It will have dual chambers one "slightly damp" one "dry" to "wipe clean" passing through filament. Coming soon...

I've other "stuff" for the Rostock MAX v2 that I've designed as well, but this is inline with making "Extruding" easier so I thought I'd add it here to share with all of you if you want.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the included "Washers" that are printable perfectly line up the center of the the 1Kg SeeMeCNC Filament Spools, 0.5Kg SeeMeCNC Spools and the little Taulman T-Glase & Nylon Filament Spools. Three washer/spacers are included for this. Although the Taulman is just a 1mm thick washer as it's got a very small spool hole diameter. Hence the hollowed out M8 Knob to accommodate the various spool widths.

Here are some photorealistic renderings.

[bvandiepenbos]

@RMLynch,
the geared stepper works fine with the Flyn-N-Strude, I have one setup on my MAX machine named "KITT"

My adapter plate is thinner than yours, so the motor will hang a bit farther off center, but that probably is no issue.
I adjust the tension on each bungee to get extruder to sit mostly straight when at center.

I used M3 flat head screws to mount adapter plate to gear box so it could be as thin as possible.


Nice looking spool holder, you should post it on repables.com


I am intrigued to find out more about your filament guide/cleaner.
One thing that can be a annoyance sometimes with the hanging extruder is the filament getting tangled or in the way when print finishes and it homes... maybe some mechanism to wind the filament back onto spool??

[JFettig]

@RMLynch,
the geared stepper works fine with the Flyn-N-Strude, I have one setup on my MAX machine named "KITT"

My adapter plate is thinner than yours, so the motor will hang a bit farther off center, but that probably is no issue.
I adjust the tension on each bungee to get extruder to sit mostly straight when at center.

I used M3 flat head screws to mount adapter plate to gear box so it could be as thin as possible.


Nice looking spool holder, you should post it on repables.com


I am intrigued to find out more about your filament guide/cleaner.
One thing that can be a annoyance sometimes with the hanging extruder is the filament getting tangled or in the way when print finishes and it homes... maybe some mechanism to wind the filament back onto spool??

I went thicker because the gear I'm using is larger OD than the hole is through the cover on the ezstruder. This way I don't have to worry about rubbing and everything lines up perfectly.

[bvandiepenbos]

@RMLynch,
the geared stepper works fine with the Flyn-N-Strude, I have one setup on my MAX machine named "KITT"

My adapter plate is thinner than yours, so the motor will hang a bit farther off center, but that probably is no issue.
I adjust the tension on each bungee to get extruder to sit mostly straight when at center.

I used M3 flat head screws to mount adapter plate to gear box so it could be as thin as possible.


Nice looking spool holder, you should post it on repables.com


I am intrigued to find out more about your filament guide/cleaner.
One thing that can be a annoyance sometimes with the hanging extruder is the filament getting tangled or in the way when print finishes and it homes... maybe some mechanism to wind the filament back onto spool??

I went thicker because the gear I'm using is larger OD than the hole is through the cover on the ezstruder. This way I don't have to worry about rubbing and everything lines up perfectly.

I see, makes sense. It is a nice design.
Mine was 1/8" thick, probably could be only 1/16".

Actually I don't use the clear plastic cover anymore, it is not needed if you replace the cover with a fender washer under center cover screw to capture the red lever helping it not twist so much. I think it works better than the flimsy clear plastic cover. I also like being able to see hob and filament better.

[RMLynch]

Sounds good RMLynch, I'm planning on whipping up a batch this weekend. I have all the metal ready to go.

That gear motor you're looking at appears to be the same, I think it has 4 times the torque because the rating posted on trid printing is the motor torque and the torque posted on 3dmakerworld might be the gearhead output torque.

I thought about doing a flying extruder to try out with this setup, it might work, the center of gravity is different than the stock motor - not sure how that would effect it.

I have had that caliper since 2004 and I love it, Still just as accurate as it was day one. I'll take a B&S caliper over Mitutoyo any day - the feel is just so much better.

Perfect!

Let me know either on here or through a PM and I'll fire off a payment(s) through PayPal I guess?

Again, thanks!

[RMLynch]

@RMLynch,
the geared stepper works fine with the Flyn-N-Strude, I have one setup on my MAX machine named "KITT"

My adapter plate is thinner than yours, so the motor will hang a bit farther off center, but that probably is no issue.
I adjust the tension on each bungee to get extruder to sit mostly straight when at center.

I used M3 flat head screws to mount adapter plate to gear box so it could be as thin as possible.


Nice looking spool holder, you should post it on repables.com


I am intrigued to find out more about your filament guide/cleaner.
One thing that can be a annoyance sometimes with the hanging extruder is the filament getting tangled or in the way when print finishes and it homes... maybe some mechanism to wind the filament back onto spool??

Thanks Brian!

As of now, it has an upper part that press fits into the existing 8mm hole with a knurled Dia. for grip (fingers). With a larger fillet radius for the filament to enter. I'll post a photo or two of it.

The bottom part(s) will be a two part setup with a hinge on one side and on the other side a sliding locking mechanism. Very simple to use... Elegant!

Inside will be two chambers as I mentioned above. A slightly damp side (if you want/need) and a dry side. Will be using fine microfibre with a small sponge sewn inside of it for both chambers, removable too.

The entire bottom section will be at ~30 degrees towards the Fly-N-Strude and will "swivel" left and right. This will be more of an alignment than anything as I've designed it to be a tight fit with the top section.

Also, will have a Bowden connection for a Bowden tube to "protect" the cleaned filament all the way down to the ezStruder.

Again, these renderings are only for the Upper Section. My 86 mother whom I look after was in the hospital recently and I was tied up a bit with that. All is fine now so I'm back to engineering and building my 3D Printer.

Once complete (day or two) I'll post the renderings on here for everyone (files too).

Rick