Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

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Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by The Rigger »

Planning for the future... The stock Rostock hot end is working fine so far, but I know it won't cook above 245°C, and frankly, it doesn't do so well (on my machine, anyway) shooting PLA, sooooo.....

Prometheus? E3D? Any other zoot-couture hot ends I might wish to investigate?

Discuss.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by Polygonhell »

If you print a lot of PLA, and nothing high temperature, get a real JHead from Hotends.com.

If you are interested in high temperature plastics, get an all metal hotend, I haven't used a promethueus (the extreme configurability is more of a put off than an advantage to me), I have 5 E3D hotends here, a V4, 2 V5's a Kraken and a V6, The V4 and one of the V5's refused to print PLA reliably, the Kraken was great with it, I haven't run PLA through the V6, but they are all well made, and E3D was top notch with support.

The short version, is I don't think there is an ideal hotend for every plastic, decide what you want to print and buy appropriately.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by Xenocrates »

So, we don't really know what you need, or what you want from a hotend. So I'll start off with a comparison of the three big ones.

1) J-heads: The king of PLA printing. Uses PEEK like the stock, so they don't like being overheated either. But nothing beats them for PLA. Buy they only from Hotends.com. Any other place is likely a knock-off (and if you want one, get it ASAP, because the guy making them is getting very discouraged by poor knock-offs ruining his good reputation)

2) E3D: Very common, very nicely made pieces of equipment. They have the widest variety of both nozzle sizes and materials. They are quick to swap out, have a large ecosystem of modifications around them, and are backed by a good company. The lights are cheap (but fully upgradable to the normal hotend), and do PLA better because the lining goes down farther in the hotend. They also have the Volcano block (and nozzles) for higher speed printing, and have nozzle sizes up to 1.2 for that, in case you really want something that looks really printed, and is quite strong. They accommodate PT100 sensors, which are high accuracy linear temperature sensors with a high max temp (the table goes up to 1100C, to give you an idea).

3) Prometheus: Much more adaptable, at least in theory, because you can change up the melt, transition, and cold zones however you like. They have better PLA performance than normal E3D hotends, due to the one piece nozzle, but that also causes them some trouble with swap speed, as you have to take the whole hotend apart to change the nozzle size, and don't have a brass or hardened steel option, which means you need the higher temperatures for stainless steel (due to lower thermal conductivity compared to brass), without having quite the wear resistance of hardened steel (although it should be a minimal concern for most printing). They don't yet have the variety of nozzle sizes that E3D has, and they seem to have less of an ecosystem of parts for them. (not that I've looked a whole lot)

Of course, there are several other hotends around. But those are the big three. So if you want say, Multi-extrusion, there are options. I'll list a few of the options for the two other oft requested features and you can look into them if you like.

Multi-extrusion:
Diamond (Three in one nozzle)
Cyclops (Two in one nozzle)
Chimera (Two in two nozzles, compatible with the Cyclops and E3D nozzles)
Kraken (Four in four nozzles, E3D compatible)
Tri-Hotend (Three in three nozzles, manufactured by a member of the forums, Titanium disulphide coated (I think that's the compound))


Water cooled:
Kraken
OPAM (Avoid like plague, countersunk nozzle creates problems)
E3D with water jacket (you may be able to find jackets for sale, or make a heat exchange you can fit an RC jacket onto, if you hae access to a machine shop)

There are plenty of other designs, and other features you may want. Some are crack-pot idea, and some work well (for example, the 1.75 and 3MM hotend that's finishing today on kickstarter (and already has a Max compatible mount, since thy feature it in a video), or the tiny hotends)
Machines:
Rostock Max V2, Duet .8.5, PT100 enabled E3D V6 and volcano, Raymond style enclosure
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by mhackney »

I have no experience with promethius but a LOT of experience with E3D V5, V6, V6 Lite, Kraken and Cyclops and I have the Volcano heater on a V6. I have 9 hot ends at last count on 7 machines. The V6 is by far the most capable of these. Issues with the V4 and V5 were resolved and I contributed to the nozzle redesign as described on the E3D blog (search Hackney). It is now a rock solid hot end for PLA, ABS, PET, Ninjaflex, Nylon, Acetal, Carbon Fiber PLA and everything else I've thrown at it. You can get stainless nozzles for abrasive materials and put on the Volcano if you need fast print speeds or large (1.2mm) extrusion width.

Nirvana is a V6 with water cooling. All but 2 of mine are water cooled now. Water cooling has really only proven to be an advantage with PLA, there is something about the very short melt-solid transition that you need with PLA to get good retracts and minimize stringing. I've done apples-to-apples comparisons with the same hot block/nozzle, filament and printer and gcode with water cooled jacket and with the air cooled jacket and there is an obvious improvement in the water cooled version - less stringing and cleaner looking perimeters and fills.

I do not buy-in to the configuration flexibility of the promethius hotend but I would have probably bought one to test except that the "kid" that started the company left a very bad impression with me when he started his campaign here. If he wants to send me one to test, I will run it through my hot end torture test and report back.

I also have a diamond triple filament switching hot end that I am converting to water cooling. Plus pretty much every major hot end that's come out over the past 5 years (SeeMeCNC all versions, J-Head, Budashnozzle and many others). Of all these, J-Head is a capable dedicated PLA hot end but there are better choices today. The E3D V6 Lite is excellent and can save you a few $ if you only want to print PLA. Otherwise move up to the V6.

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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by Jimustanguitar »

+1 for E3D. I've got a handful of V6's, and they're great. I believe in the company, know that they do great R&D, and have been impressed with their products. Compatibility with Volcano and PT100 and other things like that make it a win.

I'm sure that other manufacturers have highly competitive products, but I've got no reason to go down that road.

Plus, if you've got the hardware on hand already, it makes things compatible with a Diamond heater block someday...
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by Glacian22 »

I had an E3D v5 that never worked well for me with PLA, but I haven't heard of any issues with the v6. After my v5 I picked up a prometheus, which has been fantastic, no complaints whatsoever.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by IMBoring25 »

Some do complain about jamming with PLA and v6s (and E3D has changed the instructions to suggest thermal compound in strategic places), but I've only had problems with exotic filled filaments through hardened nozzles or when experimenting with bigger nozzles.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by Nylocke »

I've only used E3D stuff, but I do have to say that the guy behind the Prometheus seems very friendly and helpful. He has posted quite a few times on this forum and he has a thread dedicated to the prometheus, so don't feel discouraged from trying the prometheus out.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by ccavanaugh »

I'm about ready to install my third Prometheus on my third printer. No issues whatsoever with PLA and ABS and PETG print well.

Eric, the developer of the Prometheus is super helpful. He is young and I would agree inexperience krept into a couple of his initial posts, but he had the backbone to stick with his Indiegogo campaign and launch on schedule, and delivered a quality product as promised. He now has 4 nozzle sizes available to suit most any need.

I have tuned the thermistor values to match a lab certified thermocouple from work and I run at normal to low temperatures recommended by the filament supplier using a geared extruder. A direct drive extruder may not have enough torque to push material at higher speeds.

I've yet to experience a hotend specific jam since I've dialed it in for PLA. I've had a couple of print jobs freeze (usb print) and cook the filament in the hotend for a long period of time and I can simply extrude a few mm worth of material through to flush the damaged material and restart the print without a tear down.

I don't think it's not a hotend you would constantly tweak and tune between prints, but it is a robust hotend that once you set it, you can forgot it and focus on the other print processes.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by The Rigger »

Thanks to all for the replys. Lots of good information here. At this point, I'm so new to this that I think I don't know what I don't know. I *do* know, however, that I will more likely than not stick to a remote extruder/Bowden tube system, rather than a direct-drive extruder, so as to keep the swung mass lower on the delta arms - I've already had a case of a pair of arms poppping off their cariage mount when the stock SeeMeCNC hot end made a ±11" jump.

Keep 'em coming
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by AlanZ »

Your arms popped off during a move?
Are these the new style ball/socket arms?
With the white springs in place,I have a hard time imagining how the arms would come apart
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by The Rigger »

AlanZ wrote:Your arms popped off during a move?
Yup... I was printing a new base side panel (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:865931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and the shift was from one corner diagonally to the far corner, about 11" diagonally, and *POP!* Suddenly the hot end is flailing around on two delta arms.
AlanZ wrote:Are these the new style ball/socket arms?
No; my kit has the old 269mm U-joint style arms. The axle was literally ripped off the backside of the Y-axis carriage by the momentum of the hot end. My solution was to change the washers on the #4 screws that hold the axle shaft onto the carriage adaptor from #4 up to #6, so they cover more of the axle. Haven't had that happen again since.

FWIW, the Trick Laser ball-joint arm kit is on my upgrade list.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by cope413 »

E3Ds for days....https://www.instagram.com/p/BB3AlWSP14j ... terhackers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't have data to confirm, but I believe we are the largest reseller of E3Ds in the US now

I've had hundreds (literally hundreds) of support requests from them with jamming issues over the past 2 years. 100% of them have been due to one of 3 things...

1) Improper assembly/installation - specifically, not heating up hot end and tightening nozzle before printing, and/or not covering the bottom fin with the fan
2) Not changing retraction settings from their previous hot end
3) Not changing firmware and re-doing PID calibration

None of which has anything to do with the hardware itself.

If someone tells you they can't print PLA with a v6, they're either trying to sell you a different hot end, or they don't know what they're doing - or both.

As soon as I find something that the E3D can't do or print, I'll be sure to let everyone know.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by KAS »

I'm a Prometheus fan myself. Just like the nozzle design more than the others. As for the E3D V6, I ran it and had it jam but it's not really a big deal to clear out.

Also, a quick search will show how common the v6 PLA jam is: google: E3D v6 PLA jam That's not rare by any means, but yes it's correctable like anything else.


Let us know what you go with!
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by mhackney »

A couple of comments:

1) There are many many many more V6s installed than Prometheus. This translates to more reports although the percentage of issues could be much lower.
2) there are now MANY Chinese "V6" clone hotends for sale. I know for a fact that several people I've helped swore they had a real E3D when in fact they did not and it was easy to tell by a photo. AFAIK there are no clone Prometheus (another indication of market size).

I agree with cope413's list. I've helped at least 100 V6 users myself and invariably it was either an assembly problem or software/configuration issue. I've pushed 100s of KMs through 5 V6s on a daily basis and I've not had a single issue/failure/plug. To me, that is remarkable. Honestly with the complexity of assembling a Prometheus, I think "normal" users shy away from it and I would think the number of support issues would be significantly higher. E3D is also now selling a pre-assembled V6 so that should go even further.

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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by gchristopher »

One thing that's worth considering if your goal is "upgrades" is: if you're planning to print large or strong objects (brackets, etc), then a larger nozzle size and heat block will change your whole approach to 3D design.

That was the biggest thing that I noticed about trying the E3D Volcano hot end. Extruding plastic at least four times faster through the larger nozzle meant that I could make huge, blocky objects in a reasonable time. I didn't spend as much time worrying about minimizing the amount of plastic in a design because it was printing fast enough to make it a nonissue.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by Glacian22 »

In terms uber fast printing, the Prometheus does actually have a 1mm nozzle available, and the heater block can be expanded if you choose that configuration. ^^
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by KAS »

mhackney wrote:A couple of comments:

1) There are many many many more V6s installed than Prometheus. This translates to more reports although the percentage of issues could be much lower.
2) there are now MANY Chinese "V6" clone hotends for sale. I know for a fact that several people I've helped swore they had a real E3D when in fact they did not and it was easy to tell by a photo. AFAIK there are no clone Prometheus (another indication of market size).

I agree with cope413's list. I've helped at least 100 V6 users myself and invariably it was either an assembly problem or software/configuration issue. I've pushed 100s of KMs through 5 V6s on a daily basis and I've not had a single issue/failure/plug. To me, that is remarkable. Honestly with the complexity of assembling a Prometheus, I think "normal" users shy away from it and I would think the number of support issues would be significantly higher. E3D is also now selling a pre-assembled V6 so that should go even further.

I wasn't knocking E3D at all, and I promise my v6 is an official one purchased through MatterHackers. I also understand the issue is 99.99% user error in some fashion. But come-on, you've helped 100 people; Cope 314 helped "literally hundreds" with PLA jamming. Common sense here says that v7 needs to change something. Heck even clone j-heads work fantastic.

Again, E3D is an awesome company and stands behind their products 100%. But I refuse to believe they can't do any better to relieve this somewhat common occurrence with a next version.
Most of the jams appear to happen because of the bowden tube was either cut at an angle or allowed some type of gap where it meets the heat break. Obviously becomes an issue with large retracts.

Anyways, the OP can't go wrong with any of the popular hotends. It just takes a little effort to getting them configured and calibrated.

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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by mhackney »

Not to be argumentative but both Cope and I said the issue was with something the user did or didn't do.

I have seen 1 prometheus hotend in person on a local fellow's printer and he was not using it because he couldn't figure out how to set it up - sort of "configuration shock" when looking at all the options. I offered to take it off his hands but he kept it.

E3D have now started selling preassembled V6s and I suspect there is a reason for that. For any all metal hotend, you really need to minimize retracts or you do run the danger of retracting into the transition from steel to PTFE. That's true on any hot end. If the steel tube is very long (which I think the prometheus might be) this might be eliminated as a problem but it introduces other problems which the user may or may not see related to excess friction of the melt in the steel tube. With CF PLA materials, this IS an issue. The transition between the PTFE and steel tube is critical and your comment about being cut at an angle or not seated properly are very true. Also, after seating you do have to "lift" the plastic Bowden coupler insert to remove any slack and ideally put in a spacer. this is true for any Bowden system as the PTFE tube can move up/down a mm or so on retracts if you don't.

Where did you get that great photo?

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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by ccavanaugh »

I can run 8mm retracts on PLA and PETG without jamming issue on my Prometheus. The long polished one piece barrel is forgiving for the long retracts.

I've got some crappy PLA that is super stringy hence the long retracts but the better PLA's are typically a 3-4 mm retracts for my current configuration.

PETG is just plain stringy and gooey. I suspect I could improve it if I tweaked the configuration, but I still print a fair amount of PLA and don't want to tweak the hot end configuration between prints.

I do not believe the stock EzStruder to be compatible with the Prometheus. It does take a geared stepper motor upgrade. Because of the long one piece barrel it does take more force to push filament which I suspect the E3D is better at.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by KAS »

mhackney wrote:
Where did you get that great photo?
https://www.matterhackers.com/store/pri ... ith-bowden" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by mhackney »

Cool, thanks for the link.

Well, I'm going to shut up and acquire a Prometheus to give it a fair shake.

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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by Eaglezsoar »

mhackney wrote:Cool, thanks for the link.

Well, I'm going to shut up and acquire a Prometheus to give it a fair shake.
It really is a good hotend, worthy of your impressive testing.
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by d1rron »

Just found this thread. I am an avid Prometheus V2 user. Assembly was easy with their guide. You'll have to update and let us know what you think! I never get jams -- ever. I chose the 0.4mm nozzle initially, but have since also bought a 1mm and a 0.6mm. I'm playing around with 0.6mm now. I've also printed TPU with it (with a hanging extruder mod). Since you mentioned wanting to change up your extruder configuration, here is a picture of what I've got going on (have since upgraded to Trick Laser Trick Trucks) : https://i.imgur.com/3fYMpUG.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And here's an experimental print I recently attempted just to see what would happen: http://imgur.com/a/7vIDX" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(I tried printing at 0.01mm, the 8x8x4mm print is sitting on top of a quarter. I took the pictures with a DSLR and macro lens)
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Re: Upgrading the HotEnd: Prometheus vs. E3D vs. ???

Post by d1rron »

ccavanaugh wrote:I can run 8mm retracts on PLA and PETG without jamming issue on my Prometheus. The long polished one piece barrel is forgiving for the long retracts.

I've got some crappy PLA that is super stringy hence the long retracts but the better PLA's are typically a 3-4 mm retracts for my current configuration.

PETG is just plain stringy and gooey. I suspect I could improve it if I tweaked the configuration, but I still print a fair amount of PLA and don't want to tweak the hot end configuration between prints.

I do not believe the stock EzStruder to be compatible with the Prometheus. It does take a geared stepper motor upgrade. Because of the long one piece barrel it does take more force to push filament which I suspect the E3D is better at.
I run a prometheus with the stock extruder without any issues, although it's in a hanging configuration with a much shorter bowden tube. It'll even push TPU through with a 0.4mm nozzle! :D
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