PEI print bed surface experiments

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Nylocke
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Nylocke »

Those parts look familiar, are you the guy who ordered from me on MakeXYZ?

dunginhawk
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by dunginhawk »

I am on MakeXYZ but I havent placed any orders from folks on there. Nice to meet you though :)

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Rando »

techstorage wrote:PEI Is in place, I purchased from McMaster Carr the 12x24 sheet and it is thin. The z adjustment made a small dimple and there is an air bubble by an edge. I looked at the order form and it is .003" not the .03" on Amazon.

Prints stay down well, but I don't know how long the thin sheet will last. Ordered the .03" on Amazon with more tape to be ready for replacement when needed.


Hey, y'all. Please forgive me, but I just can't take it any more.

You know those spring-steel binder clips some of us are using to hold down the PEI sheets...

you DO know that those chromed clamp arms are supposed to be removed once the clips are in place, right? Just squeeze them and the come right off. It makes the whole setup so much safer all around to not have those little things in the way. They go right back in when it comes time to remove them, but I take them off when the clip is actually in place. Maybe not so much an issue when the bed doesn't move; on my TAZ4, the Y-axis moves the whole bed, and thus those 12-16 clips.

Okay, now back to more-productive use of all our time :D.

(BTW, thanks for this and other similar threads...got my PEI mojo on, abs and other materials are sticking great, with delaminations only where I deserve it due to silly design decisions)

Regards,

Thom

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by JFettig »

Rando wrote:
techstorage wrote:PEI Is in place, I purchased from McMaster Carr the 12x24 sheet and it is thin. The z adjustment made a small dimple and there is an air bubble by an edge. I looked at the order form and it is .003" not the .03" on Amazon.

Prints stay down well, but I don't know how long the thin sheet will last. Ordered the .03" on Amazon with more tape to be ready for replacement when needed.


Hey, y'all. Please forgive me, but I just can't take it any more.

You know those spring-steel binder clips some of us are using to hold down the PEI sheets...

you DO know that those chromed clamp arms are supposed to be removed once the clips are in place, right? Just squeeze them and the come right off. It makes the whole setup so much safer all around to not have those little things in the way. They go right back in when it comes time to remove them, but I take them off when the clip is actually in place. Maybe not so much an issue when the bed doesn't move; on my TAZ4, the Y-axis moves the whole bed, and thus those 12-16 clips.

Okay, now back to more-productive use of all our time :D.

(BTW, thanks for this and other similar threads...got my PEI mojo on, abs and other materials are sticking great, with delaminations only where I deserve it due to silly design decisions)

Regards,

Thom


They work just fine leaving them in :lol:

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Rando »

For YOU maybe. Others on this forum, however, might be smart enough to consider the opinions and experiences of others when they are generously offered.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by jarek319 »

Rando wrote:
techstorage wrote:PEI Is in place, I purchased from McMaster Carr the 12x24 sheet and it is thin. The z adjustment made a small dimple and there is an air bubble by an edge. I looked at the order form and it is .003" not the .03" on Amazon.

Prints stay down well, but I don't know how long the thin sheet will last. Ordered the .03" on Amazon with more tape to be ready for replacement when needed.


Hey, y'all. Please forgive me, but I just can't take it any more.

You know those spring-steel binder clips some of us are using to hold down the PEI sheets...

you DO know that those chromed clamp arms are supposed to be removed once the clips are in place, right? Just squeeze them and the come right off. It makes the whole setup so much safer all around to not have those little things in the way. They go right back in when it comes time to remove them, but I take them off when the clip is actually in place. Maybe not so much an issue when the bed doesn't move; on my TAZ4, the Y-axis moves the whole bed, and thus those 12-16 clips.

Okay, now back to more-productive use of all our time :D.

(BTW, thanks for this and other similar threads...got my PEI mojo on, abs and other materials are sticking great, with delaminations only where I deserve it due to silly design decisions)

Regards,

Thom


I did the same thing, but almost killed myself trying to get them in when I needed to remove my glass to reapply glue/finally give up on glue and stick on PEI. I just leave them on now just in case...

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by 626Pilot »

Rando wrote:For YOU maybe. Others on this forum, however, might be smart enough to consider the opinions and experiences of others when they are generously offered.

It's fair to say that it works fine with the clips' "arms" left intact. The clips themselves are more of a hazard than the arms because they will be the first thing a tool collides with. I never saw a reason to remove them myself. On these printers, they just aren't in any path the robot is likely to follow.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by jdurand »

Now on my Afinia, I found out quickly that if you put the clips on as illustrated (at least in the original manual), the head WILL hit a clip when it does the initial purge/wipe and then the fan shroud will hit the other clips.

So, move the left-front clip so the nozzle doesn't hit it and cut the shroud shorter so IT clears the rest of the clips.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by dunginhawk »

I just tried to print PLA to the matte side (after sanding, at 60c) and it wouldnt stick at all.. Sanded a bit, then rubbed with alcohol. nada... is there some other process for PLA? because the ABS sticks well.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Odd. I print PLA many hours everyday with no problems. Z height calibration and cleanliness of the surface are the 2 biggest factors. I wonder - based on the issues I've seen a couple of people have had recently - if the new batches of PEI have a silicone or other contamination. Try cleaning with acetone if you can. Soap and hot water too.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by dunginhawk »

so I sanded the surface lightly then I rubbed it down with alcohol.. that's what worked well for ABS.
I can try the acetone angle.
I may need to replace my PEI already because it seems to have gotten pretty nicked up already.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by 3D-Print »

Just placed my PEI print surface as detailed above: In summary, I followed the plan as detailed by "mhackney" (viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4336&start=618). In summary......

1) Triple-washed the glass with dishwashing soap, then washed with Windex, then isopropyl alcohol. I placed it on a micro-cloth and let it dry :)
2) Then, I placed the 3M tape - TapeCase 468MP 12in X 12in as detailed by "nitewatchman" (viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4336&start=621)
3) Then, I washed the PEI with Isopropyl EtoH, let it dry, then laid it down as described by "nitewatchman" (see above link)
4) With that, there was no bubbles!!!! I used the micro-cloth and did a rub down by hand.

Worked Awesome and is very adherent!!!!

Again thanks to everyone for all the great insight. Now to calibrate and print.

Dan
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

I purchased another sheet from Amazon today, it will arrive Saturday, so I can see first hand if there are any special cleaning requirements. Stay tuned.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by dunginhawk »

So im running PLA on my rostock tonight and not even wiping it down between prints and its sticking great.
SO im not sure why the other one isnt cutting the mustard, but i should replace it anyway.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Very odd!

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Rando »

626Pilot wrote:
Rando wrote:For YOU maybe. Others on this forum, however, might be smart enough to consider the opinions and experiences of others when they are generously offered.

It's fair to say that it works fine with the clips' "arms" left intact. The clips themselves are more of a hazard than the arms because they will be the first thing a tool collides with. I never saw a reason to remove them myself. On these printers, they just aren't in any path the robot is likely to follow.


The full 27-page thread talks about a range and variety of printers, and it is over that range I addressed in my post. This thread is referenced in many places across the 3D community as a primary place where the history of PEI beds, getting them to stick and getting things to stick to it, can be seen in full. MANY 3D printers on the market are the kind where the y-axis moves the whole bed. For example, the TAZ4. On the front, back and left sides of the bed, a dangling arm on the underside can snag on the y-axis belt, the stepper motor pulley, the metal frame, and even sometimes the x-axis wiring. In such instances they represent such a clear and present danger I thought it bore mentioning. You know...the way people in forums do. Help each other out and sh!t like that.

But apparently many here believe the world is only populated with their beloved Orion delta-style machines, and all advice for others is dismissed. I guess I must have missed the big red sign proclaiming this a phase-III online community, where outside new opinions are denounced and castigated before discovering their truth; where a vocal few insist on making rude comments to knowledgeable people looking to contribute. In case you're wondering, phase-IV online communities exist when people stop contributing because this exact kind of push-back makes it not worth the time it takes to research, write, edit and post. That phase is called "imminent community failure". No worries, I'm not new to seeing this phenomenon play out. Just so you know, I tend to have backed up my posts with a full examination of the facts before posting, so no, your blanket statements in fact do not diminish the truth of my statements.

Okay, so here's few more reasons for those who won't care anyway: the arms are heatsinks. Having problems with the edge of the bed getting cold? Well guess what: those arms dissipate heat too and in a small way add to your problems. How about it just looks better with them off? I suspect the number and kind of reasons could just as well be endless, but a bunch here believe that nothing ever said will ever convince them to try anything that would ever challenge their long-ago made up minds. Fine...you have fun with that. It doesn't matter whether you believe me, within six months you'll know I'm right.

Do people really leave a #2 Phillips screwdriver in every screw they put in? How about a hex key in a socket-head screw? Do you leave the empty oil container under the hood of the car? Do you drive off with the gas-filler hose still in the side of the car? Wait...I'll bet you leave that plastic protective film on all your electronics, don't you? The idea that the installation tool is not to be left in place is not normally a foreign concept to technical people, so it's hilarious how much push back some people are giving. Sure...Heroin won't necessarily kill you every single time either...so go for it!

For that non-zero population to whom the advice applies and is important, well now they know. For the naysayers, just so you know, the existence of that population proves that your assertions that somehow the arms can always be left on is nothing more than a really obvious logical fallacy. Take 'em off, or don't, I don't care. I don't leave loose screws in my machinery, no matter how likely it might be to not be a problem. And when I see a preponderance of people making what could be a damaging mistake, I for one am willing to say so, unbowed by the protestations of those to whom the advice doesn't apply.

Silly silly people.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Thanks Rando. I had no idea my thread was read by so many. Having been hit in the head by a binding clip (on an H1 printer I built moons ago) your comment was understood by me. I leave them on my Rostock because I am constantly swapping beds - I have a number of plates with different surfaces (glossy PEI, matte PEI, PrintInZ, BuildTak, and several others). The bottom side of the bed surface on a Rostock is insulted. I have a 1/8" aluminum heat dissipator under the bed and the top of the clip is above the glass and surface, so heat radiation is not an issue (but it is something that I was concerned about way back when).

I welcome the non-delta crowd here, we all have "sticky" issues to deal with (pun intended) so maybe my passion for PEI will help others!

One last thing and then I request that this line is dropped, permanently. The two clips back by the electrical connector are red and the rest are zebra striped, they actually look kind of cool with the metal handle folded back.

cheers,
Michael

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PEI recap sticky thread

Post by mhackney »

1/24/2015 UPDATE: If you are coming here for the first time, it can be a bit arduous to wade through the 27 pages of discussion here. I've summarized the final materials and process in a new sticky thread. If you just want to learn one tried and true way of installing and using PEI, go to that thread. There are many other comments, suggestions, installation techniques here if you choose to wade through!

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Well, I installed a new sheet of the Amazon 0.03" PEI today with the matte side up. I photographed the process and updated the sticky install thread I created this morning. Once installed, I cleaned the surface with isopropanol, recalibrate Z and printed. Perfect stick first time. You can see the photos in the other thread.

I do have a new piece of the McMaster Carr 0.04" PEI to test too. I noticed that this sheet is glossy on both sides. I seem to recall helping a friend last year and his was matte on one side, but maybe I don't recall correctly. I'll install this sheet later this weekend and see how it goes.

BTW, the photos are of PLA at 185°C printing on the PEI at 50°C. Absolutely no problem, I did not have to restart or do any tomfoolery, it just stuck the landing and printed perfectly first time.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by 626Pilot »

Rando wrote:I have to be right all the time. Anyone who suggests an alternate to something I say is a "silly, silly" person. Please get ready for more shrill, abrasive posts anytime a person disagrees with me.

That's how you're coming off right now. You have been abrasive with two people in this thread already, and I'm asking you to stop. We like to keep it friendly and professional here. Insinuating that anyone who disagrees with you is retarded is neither friendly nor professional.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

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Yeah that reaction was kinda nuts.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Nareikuk »

I must have a load of slippery ABS. I am struggling to get it to stick to PEI very well. It sort of tries to stick, but not at all well. The PEI is the Amazon 0.03" stuff, stuck down with 3M tape. I've washed it, sanded it, cleaned it with acetone, cleaned it with surgical spirit. I have ordered some IPA, but have already tried IPA wipes with no luck. I disassembled and re-built the effector platform and re-calibrated a few times. Disappearing purple works quite well to stick parts to PEI and is the only way I can get stuff to stick, but that worked well on glass too. I've tried a few different tips from mhackneys thread to get a better first layer but it has not helped on 'raw' PEI. The pure IPA is about the last thing I can think of to try.

Any other ideas?

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Odd Nareikuk. Are you using Canola oil perchance? What temp are you running your extruder and your bed at? Have you measured your first layer height? Is it on the target? If not, fix that.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Nareikuk »

Definitely not using oil of any sort. Bed at 85C, but I tried 80C up to 95C. Hot end is E3Dv6 at 230 currently but also tried range from 218 to 245. I measured 1st layer at 0.2mm with expected 1st layer set to 0.25 (up to 0.35 tried too). Also tried a range of 1st layer heights to try to get this working. I am printing really close to the centre of the bed, within 25mm to try to limit affects further out. I did try to print a disc 270mm diameter, and while the first layer looked OK, not great, but usable, the disc detached itself sometime later after about layer 4 or 5. I wasn't there, and the curled up disc was on the floor with plenty of plastic around my desk and floor too :? One common thing about the prints detaching from the bed is that they all detach from the direction of the Y-Z axis - so quite likely a levelling/adjustment issue along with poor bed adhesion.

Smaller prints are fine if I use the glue stick on the PEI. I printed the snowflake vase with glue stick on the bed and it stayed stuck down nicely. Without the glue stick and it lifted early on in the print.

I'd really like to get away from the glue stick and people seem to be getting good results from raw PEI, so it must be possible.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by teoman »

If you are not printing exotic materials, the whole benefit of PEI is that you do not need any adhesives or the other messy stuff.
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