PEI print bed surface experiments

BenTheRighteous · Post by **BenTheRighteous** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:12 pm

I made an oopsie and tried printing this stuff on PEI. I'd read the vague warnings about "pei and ninjaflex don't mix" but that stuff isn't ninjaflex and I just thought worst case is it doesn't stick. Nope - turns out it stuck SO well it's literally impossible to remove.

I wound up cutting most of the part off with a knife and peeled off much of the remaining material, but there's still a residue left on the PEI. I've been trying to remove it by printing on top of it and hoping the residue comes off with the print - some of it does, but unless there's another solution then I'm going to be seeing this stuff in the bottom of my prints for a long time.

Is there a solvent that I can use on that "Soft PLA" to get rid of the remainder that's also safe on the PEI?

teoman · Post by **teoman** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:22 pm

MEK, methyl ethyl ketone will dissolve PLA. I do not know the effect on PEI.

And it is nasty stuff you should read the MSDS first.

Do you think you could do a bit of sanding?

BenTheRighteous · Post by **BenTheRighteous** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:30 pm

Yeah, that thought occurred to me too. Sanding might be the way to go - probably faster AND safer than ordering some chemical with a dozen carcinogens in it online...

jesse · Post by **jesse** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:50 pm

BenTheRighteous wrote:Is there a solvent that I can use on that "Soft PLA" to get rid of the remainder that's also safe on the PEI?

Sand it and flip the PEI upside down.

KAS · Post by **KAS** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:52 pm

BenTheRighteous wrote:Yeah, that thought occurred to me too. Sanding might be the way to go - probably faster AND safer than ordering some chemical with a dozen carcinogens in it online...

If you decide to go the MEK route, try the PVC primer (clear) at any hardware store. It's a mix of MEK, Acetone, and Cyclohexanone.

It comes in Purple as-well that stains everything it touches, i'd stick to clear.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_23543-138-30782 ... facetInfo=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jdurand · Post by **jdurand** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:10 pm

If you go to buy MEK in the hardware store, read the fine print. There's a lot of:

MEK
equivalent

EL Cuajinais · Post by **EL Cuajinais** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:31 pm

Quick question,
If I install PEI on one side of the glass, can I still use the bare glass side to print Ninjaflex? Or will I need to purchase a separate glass for that since the PEI insulates the glass and prevents it from heating up properly?

BenTheRighteous · Post by **BenTheRighteous** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:06 pm

Just a quick update, since a paid order came in that night (woohoo!) I decided to just try the acetone I had on hand on the soft PLA despite my understanding that it doesn't work on regular PLA.

Well it worked like a freaking charm! Thanks for the tips though anyways.

And yeah you can just flip your glass upside down, the PEI is not such a strong insulator that it will harm your prints.

EL Cuajinais · Post by **EL Cuajinais** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:49 pm

BenTheRighteous wrote:And yeah you can just flip your glass upside down, the PEI is not such a strong insulator that it will harm your prints.

Thanks for the info.

dadams · Post by **dadams** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:45 am

Hey all,
Just installed a PEI sheet yesterday on my MAX V2. ABS sticks very well.
My PEI sheet (From McCaster) had both sides glossy and wasn't exactly 12"x12" so a small portion (about 5mm on one edge) of the plate wasn't covered, no biggie a guess...

Quick questions, how does bridge do on PEI?

Thanks

Nylocke · Post by **Nylocke** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:51 am

Nylon doesn't PEI, that includes bridge. Polycarbonate does though, and probably Tritan as well

KAS · Post by **KAS** » Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:11 pm

Wanted to say thanks for this thread. Just installed the .040 PEI from amazon.

Big beefy roll of water logged nylon line trimmer came in as-well. Any of you peeps from CA need rain, you can come and take it back anytime...

redoverred · Post by **redoverred** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:21 pm

I'm having a bit of trouble with the PEI surface and my ABS. I use MG-94 ABS pellets that I extrude myself from a Filastruder. The PEI I purchased was the .03 inch sheet and I attached it with the tape as per the instructions from the stickied thread. I put the matte side up and I have attached it directly to a .093 inch copper plate that sits on the Onyx (I skipped the glass because I figured what's the use in putting another layer in). It is flat as the glass, so it's a non-issue.

I have the machine calibrated well, it was printing pretty well on the glass before the PEI for 8 hour or less prints, but would curl a bit (even with a large brim) over that amount, so I wanted to try the PEI to get that "magical" stickiness I hear so much about. I used to use hairspray, which worked the best for me and tried glue for months before I realized hairspray worked much better. Now, on the PEI, it is flat (I checked at many points) and I have washed it with alcohol wipes, but the prints do not seem to stick as well as on hairspray.

I use a 90C heated bed, 225C extruder, .2mm, 125% width, and a 20-loop brim for the first layer at 30mm/s. Then, I use .15mm layers and 70-100mm/s for the rest. The telltale sign that the print is lifting slightly is that after an hour or so, much of the brim around the model corners is visibly lifting from the PEI sheet (I can see it is white vs. a darker color when it is first printed). I haven't had the chance to print a much longer print, but with the hairspray it would only lift after a few hours.

I do plan a much longer print next week, as I am almost out of ABS filament right now (I have to extrude a few pounds Sunday), but in the mean time I wanted to do some smaller prints to test the PEI surface. I also was planning on using some 2000 grit wet sandpaper over the surface a bit when it arrives from Amazon. Any other suggestions?

JFettig · Post by **JFettig** » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:57 pm

Sanding makes a big difference. Proper first layer also makes a very big difference. 125% width - are you talking about 125% extrusion multiplier or 125% extrusion width stacked at 100%? If you're over extruding on the first layer, you'll have issues. If you want a .2mm thick layer you should get a .2mm thick layer.

5 degrees also makes a big difference, try 95C if you're having issues at 90. I have issues at 85C but at 90 it works great.

redoverred · Post by **redoverred** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:00 am

JFettig wrote:Sanding makes a big difference. Proper first layer also makes a very big difference. 125% width - are you talking about 125% extrusion multiplier or 125% extrusion width stacked at 100%? If you're over extruding on the first layer, you'll have issues. If you want a .2mm thick layer you should get a .2mm thick layer.

5 degrees also makes a big difference, try 95C if you're having issues at 90. I have issues at 85C but at 90 it works great.

I will sand it and increase the temp. The only reason I hadn't used 95C is because getting to high temps with the copper plate is absolutely terrible. It stays at temp fine, but it takes forever! I will attempt to cover it with a towel. I am creating an enclosure, so I assume that will help a bit overall. The extrusion width is 125%, so if it extrudes at .4 mm width, for example, it will now do .5mm width, still at .2mm height. I found that increasing that helped a bit before, but perhaps now that I am using PEI I should lower it back to 100%. Thanks!!

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:18 am

In addition to sanding, you also want to clean the surface of the PEI with isopropyl alcohol and don't touch it with your fingers after cleaning!

KAS · Post by **KAS** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:42 am

Came across rwg42985's video yesterday, looks like certain types of Phenolic sheets are working for nylon type materials.

It's interesting that it's able to stick without a heated bed. Granted that's just him holding it up to the nozzle, no telling of long term strength or warping.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgkFS2MeQFI[/youtube]

stonewater · Post by **stonewater** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:43 am

I will be ordering PEI after I get my 24 volt mod done. as a side note the purple elmers glue works really well. so well in fact I will be ordering a new glass plate... I let a print cool yesterday and I heard a pop as it released from the glass, and this time it took a piece of the glass with it about the size of a quarter, flaked it nicely I might add. glad there are 2 sides to the glass I can use. It is about 3 inches from the center of the bed.

printing ABS at 90 degrees 240 hot end temp.

cannot say enough good things about the toner cartridge black from micro center.... zero clogs, it goes down smooth at 240. whoever found that vendor I owe a beer!!

Tom C

redoverred · Post by **redoverred** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:54 pm

mhackney wrote:In addition to sanding, you also want to clean the surface of the PEI with isopropyl alcohol and don't touch it with your fingers after cleaning!

Definitely! I have alcohol wipes that I run over the sheet with right before a print (before heating) and I also plan on cleaning it extra good after I sand it. The wipes don't show any dirt after cleaning, so I assume it's clean.

doctorgonzo · Post by **doctorgonzo** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:59 pm

Hey guys,

I did something a little different when I installed my PEI sheet. I used a 12x12" piece of 468 tape, and I used the old sign maker's trick of floating it on Windex to aid installation.

So, the procedure went like this:

1: Prep the glass with windex, then acetone.
2: Spray windex on the glass and apply the 468 tape. It will be easy to slide around and get it centered on the glass. Use a squeegee to burnish the tape down, starting at the center and working your way out. Push as much windex out as you can. Work on a towel and press hard with the squeegee.
3: Wait an hour. Should be dry and stuck down by now. It just needs to be stuck down enough for you to remove the paper backing without peeling up the tape.
4: Prep the PEI with windex, then alcohol.
5: Spray windex on PEI then float it on to glass/tape. It will slide around pretty easily as long as you don't press down.
6: Use the squeegee and repeat the burnishing, pressing hard and working from the center toward the edges.
7: Cook the sandwich on the heated bed, 60C for half an hour worked for me.
8: Perform a final burnishing with the squeegee and you're done.

The finished result has no bubbles and it was easy to do. I got it on the first try.

I've printed several items at 90C and the tape is holding fine. It doesn't seem like the windex has any noticeable effect on the adhesive.

Chris

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:25 pm

I like that idea! I'm going to try it on my new build, need to order the 12" square tape. Thanks!

doctorgonzo · Post by **doctorgonzo** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:58 am

I went ahead and made up a second one with the "Windex trick", using the .030" material from Amazon, matte side up. I CNC'd the circle on my mill. This glass has PEI on one side, Kapton on the other. Looks like Kapton is "sooo last year" at this point, so it'll probably be coming off.

Here's a pic, no bubbles!

[img]http://i.imgur.com/9EPdEd1.jpg[/img]

BenTheRighteous · Post by **BenTheRighteous** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:09 pm

I'm jealous, that looks awesome!

redoverred · Post by **redoverred** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:37 am

doctorgonzo wrote:I went ahead and made up a second one with the "Windex trick", using the .030" material from Amazon, matte side up. I CNC'd the circle on my mill. This glass has PEI on one side, Kapton on the other. Looks like Kapton is "sooo last year" at this point, so it'll probably be coming off.

Here's a pic, no bubbles!

[img]http://i.imgur.com/9EPdEd1.jpg[/img]

Well, when this sheet inevitably peels up due to my horrible tape job, I know the method I'm going to use to reattach it!

Post by **Eaglezsoar** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:48 pm

Can someone post a source for the 12x12" piece of 468 tape. I do not see it on Amazon.com

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PEI print bed surface experiments

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