PEI print bed surface experiments

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mhackney
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

The copper Permutex gasket cement was a no-go. It releases at 60°C. The RTV silicone was shipped today. I am confident it will work.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by geneb »

LulzBot ships their heated beds with a sheet of PET attached to the glass. It'd good up to ABS bed temps - you might want to contact them to find out what adhesive they're using. You might also want to try a PET sheet yourself.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Cleveralias »

I ordered a .03 sheet for a more permanent application and I plan to try adhering it to an aluminum plate with 3M 90 spray adhesive. It's rated to 250*F, which doesn't give as much margin as would be ideal but should suffice for my use if it holds through the range. I'll post results when available.

Miraculously, my .09 sheet is still performing better than anything else ever has, even with my ridiculous glue stick temporary fix. Really impressive. I'm printing filament with ease that I had all but thrown away for not being able to get it to stick. I printed the largest piece I've ever done at 220mm yesterday with no trouble. I've also found that T-Glase loves this stuff.

Does anyone have any suggestions for part removal? I'm finding that even once the bed has cooled to RT parts are not releasing. My blast of cold air trick still works like a charm but I was expecting parts to pop off on their own eventually.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Cleveralias, I use 3M 90 spray all the time. Consider, the gasket adhesive I got is also "rated to 500°F". That's only part of the story, it needs to not soften and release at high temps. The gasket spray AND 3M 90 will not hold at around 70°C. We need something that actually cures to form a bond. That's why the RTV spray silicone looks promising. Spray on a thin coat, apply the PEI, press and let cure. No releasing and good to well over the temps we need.

I've not had problems with ABS and PLA parts popping off. The guys on the google forum dip the entire bed and part in cold water!

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Cleveralias »

Thanks, Michael, for saving me time and effort.

It hurts to point this out - I can't explain how I didn't find this before ordering two sheets: http://catalog.cshyde.com/viewitems/fil ... h-adhesive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. And of course it's only $9 for a 12x12 of .03.

Sigh. Just put in an order for a sheet of this stuff. I can't find detail on the heat rating with the adhesive, but I imagine it would have to meet or exceed the capabilities of the material itself. I only hope this is the last time I pay for Ultem this week :)
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Cool, I missed that source in my search. .003" is very thin so should transmit heat relatively well. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

cheers,
Michael

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Eaglezsoar »

mhackney wrote:Cleveralias, I use 3M 90 spray all the time. Consider, the gasket adhesive I got is also "rated to 500°F". That's only part of the story, it needs to not soften and release at high temps. The gasket spray AND 3M 90 will not hold at around 70°C. We need something that actually cures to form a bond. That's why the RTV spray silicone looks promising. Spray on a thin coat, apply the PEI, press and let cure. No releasing and good to well over the temps we need.

I've not had problems with ABS and PLA parts popping off. The guys on the google forum dip the entire bed and part in cold water!
Looking again at the product it looks like it is in a spray can but puts out a bead of the stuff that you will have to level. I may be wrong but then again....
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Eaglezsoar »

mhackney wrote:As soon as I wrote that I said to myself "self, you should really google 'spray can rtf silicone' and see if you get any hits." Guess, what, first hit:

RTV Silicone Sealant in a spray can

It comes in several temp ranges - both good to 450°F/232°C - and one of them is CLEAR!!! I really have to get some of this to try out! I also wonder what it is primarily used for? Cool stuff.
That link you provided is now dead.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Still works for me, maybe try it again Eagle. Looks like you are right about it putting down a bead. Rats! But, I can use a hard plastic squeegee and put down a thin, smooth layer and then put it between sheets of aluminum and press it until cured. I'm still hopeful!

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Eaglezsoar »

mhackney wrote:Still works for me, maybe try it again Eagle. Looks like you are right about it putting down a bead. Rats! But, I can use a hard plastic squeegee and put down a thin, smooth layer and then put it between sheets of aluminum and press it until cured. I'm still hopeful!
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Please let me know if the silicone works for you, I think the next step would be a commercial epoxy specifically designed for Ultem or PEI. But it is hard to get these.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Ok, that's not right at all - the site is http://www.zorotools.com/g/00100023/k-G2678444" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by bdjohns1 »

Anyone thought about laminating on one of the thin-film pieces of PEI (0.003" or 0.005") that McMaster sells? I imagine that would be easier to cut with scissors or a knife. Smallest size they sell the thin films in is 12x24, so you'd get enough material for 2.

I've got a 2' square vacuum veneering bag I can try for clamping this.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

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Cleveralias is trying it with his .03 material but there is some confusion and it might be .003. Cleveralias, which is it you have?

At this point, the challenge is in the adhesive. Some of the guys on the google delta forum were suggesting a 3M film adhesive that is used with the heat pads to adhere them. That looks very interesting but I can not find 12" x 12" sheets, only rolls of 12" for >>$! So I have been looking for alternatives.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Eaglezsoar »

mhackney wrote:Cleveralias is trying it with his .03 material but there is some confusion and it might be .003. Cleveralias, which is it you have?

At this point, the challenge is in the adhesive. Some of the guys on the google delta forum were suggesting a 3M film adhesive that is used with the heat pads to adhere them. That looks very interesting but I can not find 12" x 12" sheets, only rolls of 12" for >>$! So I have been looking for alternatives.
What is the cost on the 3M film adhesive and how much is in there. Please send me a link and I will split the cost with you if we are sure it will work..
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by bdjohns1 »

That CS Hyde material that Cleveralias was looking at says it's rated to 330F and is using a 3M acrylic adhesive, which appears to be rated for 200C continuous. If that works, it looks like the one-stop solution to our bed needs.

That page references 0.003", 0.005", and 0.010" options. The 0.003" option is attractive at <$10 per 12x12".
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by bdjohns1 »

I went ahead and ordered a couple pieces of the CS Hyde 0.003" material with the acrylic adhesive. I should receive it pretty quick, since I'm pretty close to their location in Chicagoland.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Cleveralias »

I misspoke earlier - the adhesive backed sheet I ordered from CS Hyde is .003". That sure seems like it should fit the bill.

I'm interested to see how it holds up being so thin, but it's great that we have a source with thicker options if needed.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Eagle, this is what I found: http://www.amazon.com/3M-Adhesive-Trans ... B000V4JN30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I want to try the RTV silicone first!

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Eaglezsoar »

mhackney wrote:Eagle, this is what I found: http://www.amazon.com/3M-Adhesive-Trans ... B000V4JN30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I want to try the RTV silicone first!
I think you are trying to give me a heart attack!
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

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That's why I said >>$ !!!

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Eaglezsoar »

I have decided to return the PEI that I bought to Amazon and buy the self adhesive stuff.
That .03 stuff is just too thick and hard to glue. Back it goes! My order for the thin stuff is going out today.
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

My only concern with the .003" stuff is that it will be similar to Kapton. When I was using 12" circles of .003" Kapton on my bed, it held parts well but was very prone to tearing. One drag of the nozzle and it was done and needed to be replaced. At least with this material, a scratch is not going to prevent further use and may in fact be healable by burnishing. But we need to to experiment until we find the right combination!

cheers,
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by Eaglezsoar »

mhackney wrote:My only concern with the .003" stuff is that it will be similar to Kapton. When I was using 12" circles of .003" Kapton on my bed, it held parts well but was very prone to tearing. One drag of the nozzle and it was done and needed to be replaced. At least with this material, a scratch is not going to prevent further use and may in fact be healable by burnishing. But we need to to experiment until we find the right combination!

cheers,
Michael
Agreed. I will be careful with it and try not to scratch it. No more chisels and hammer to get the parts off! If nothing else we can go to John's window tint idea.
Did you get the "spray" silicone yet?
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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

No, the silicone is scheduled for delivery tomorrow.

All of the product descriptions for this stuff on at least 8 web sites say "aerosol" but the photos sure look more like it extrudes out like cake decorative frosting.

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Re: PEI print bed surface experiments

Post by mhackney »

Ok, the silicone came in and as pointed out by Eagle, it isn't actually an aerosol. A bit of misleading advertising there.

BUT, the good news is that silicone should work! I simply put a thin bead in a spiral starting from the center out. Then I used a hard plastic squeegee (you could use a credit card too as long as the edge is nice and sharp) to spread a very thin layer of the silicone in the glass. You can make a VERY thin layer this way. Then I made sure the PEI was nice and clean and positioned it on the glass and pressed it down by hand. Then I added a few drops of liquid dish soap and a bit of water to make a slippery puddle. I then used a clean squeegee and starting from the middle - where I putt he soap puddle - pressed hard and worked my way to the edges of the glass. You can see the "bubbles" through the PEI so it was very easy to smooth these out. The soap just makes a lubricant so as not to scratch the PEI. Even the visible "bubbles" could not be felt or seen (looking along the surface) of the PEI. But I was able to get them smoothed out easily. So now I have the plate under pressure while the silicone cures.

Any off the shelf silicone should work fine. This material was a bit thinner than the tube silicones I've used. I experimented with thinning it with a bit of acetone and that does indeed thin it out but I don't think it is necessary. It was quite easy to spread the silicone with the squeegee.

I'll let this cure overnight and trim the square into a circle. I realized another way to trim the PEI - use a coping or jewelers saw with a fine blade. That makes it easy to trim/cut right up against the glass without fear of breaking it. It should be quick work. Then sand with fine sandpaper to relieve the sharp edges. I tried this on some scrap PEI I had from some of my reel parts and it was very easy to do.

cheers,
Michael

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