Canola Convert

User-Generated tips and tricks for the Rostock Max, Orion, H1.1, or H1 Printers
User avatar
nitewatchman
Printmaster!
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:51 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Canola Convert

Post by nitewatchman »

I made a number of modifications to my printer over the holidays. One of these was the addition of a E3D-V6 Hot End.

For whatever reason I was having a lot of trouble with the Hot End jamming and not feeding smoothly. Out of frustration I remember a discussion about lubing the filament with Canola Oil to help with these issues.

Well I tried it. Every time a filament change occurs I dip the end in the Canola Oil. Lo and behold no more jams, no more rough feeding with HIPS, PLA or ABS.

Likely the "canola cure" is wishful thinking but I am comfortable with the solution to the problem (it is logical) and it was much cleaner and easier than killing a chicken on top of the printer.

nitewatchman
Canola Oil Convert
User avatar
techstorage
Printmaster!
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:37 am
Location: Atlanta GA and Minneapolis MN

Re: Canola Convert

Post by techstorage »

I also installed the E3D v6 hot end last week and after days of printing ABS parts with plenty of heat and no problems, I went to a PLA project. The hot end clogged up partway through a 36 hour print job.

I just switched back to the original Seemecnc hot end for the PLA prints. It takes a long time to change back the EPROM setting, realign and heat calibrate the printer between hot ends changes.

I think I will try the Canola Oil solution and stay with one hot end when I switch back to ABS prints.

Thanks for sharing nightwatchman.
User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by Jimustanguitar »

Does the canola oil "float" on the molten PLA and keep it lubricated semi-permanently, or would it be a good idea to add a drop every x number of printing hours?
User avatar
nitewatchman
Printmaster!
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:51 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Re: Canola Convert

Post by nitewatchman »

Jimustanguitar wrote:Does the canola oil "float" on the molten PLA and keep it lubricated semi-permanently, or would it be a good idea to add a drop every x number of printing hours?
I can't tell that the oil is present at all other than my prints smell like French Fries.

Don't know how long it lasts longest print to date after trying the oil is about 4 hours.
User avatar
nitewatchman
Printmaster!
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:51 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Re: Canola Convert

Post by nitewatchman »

techstorage wrote:I also installed the E3D v6 hot end last week and after days of printing ABS parts with plenty of heat and no problems, I went to a PLA project. The hot end clogged up partway through a 36 hour print job.

I just switched back to the original Seemecnc hot end for the PLA prints. It takes a long time to change back the EPROM setting, realign and heat calibrate the printer between hot ends changes.

I think I will try the Canola Oil solution and stay with one hot end when I switch back to ABS prints.

Thanks for sharing nightwatchman.
I significantly cheated on my E3D-V6 Installation. I used the same M3 Screw-In Thermistor on it that I use on my SeeMe Hot End so there is no EEPROM change. Also used the MakerHive top plate to simplify connections and will be using it on my SeeMe Hot End and Effector. There is a significant PID calibration change between the two Hot Ends but those numbers can be recorded for both nozzles and plugged in.

I haven't worked out the bugs yet but hopefully I can change the Hot End mounted to the Effector, reload the EEPROM Changes, reset Z and start "shootin ducks".
User avatar
jmpreuss
Printmaster!
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:12 pm

Re: Canola Convert

Post by jmpreuss »

I have never used Canola oil but from the people I know who do it seems that very little is needed.

For those who are having issues with the E3D v6 and PLA how big is your retraction amount? I lowered mine to about 3mm and haven't had any issues. I just did a 55 hour print in natural pla with tons of retractions and it didn't clog once.
PTMNBN="Printer that must not be named" - a heavily upgraded Replicator 2
precisionpete
Printmaster!
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:53 pm

Re: Canola Convert

Post by precisionpete »

I'll chime in here since I am rebuilding my E3D V6 hot end.
Last print the nozzle hit the green PLA christmas tree ornament I was printing and really whacked the nozzle.
I have green PlA all over the heater block and coming out the heat break.
It also broke the filament (got to hang around next to the printer on those 90 minute prints!
The nozzle has 2 flats 180 degrees apart on the output side of the nozzle and after clearing the pla it's completely closed.
The whack must have been hard.

So my upgrade is the following:
I ordered another complete kit.

I want to see if the heat break is the same size, print says inside diameter which screws into heat block is supposed to be 2mm. I measure 2.25mm seems bit too large.

Also, I dropped that tiny thermistor and for the life of me cannot find it. (why I ordered another kit also) spare parts!

I am putting connectors on all the solder joints so I can remove everything easier when it jams again.

Also, great minds think alike. Building an all metal mount with screws on both top and bottom for easy removal.
User avatar
bvandiepenbos
Printmaster!
Posts: 927
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:25 pm
Location: Goshen, IN
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by bvandiepenbos »

I can NOT print PLA with the E3D v6 either.
Retraction 3-4 mm

Guess I need to give the Canola oil a try.


nitewatchman... french fries lol your to funny.
~*Brian V.

RostockMAX v2 (Stock)
MAX METAL "ShortyMAX"
MAX METAL Rostock MAX Printer Frame
NEMESIS Air Delta v1 & v2 -Aluminum delta printers
Rostock MAX "KITT" - Tri-Force Frame
GRABER i3 "Slim"
BenTheRighteous
Printmaster!
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:38 am

Re: Canola Convert

Post by BenTheRighteous »

nitewatchman wrote:it was much cleaner and easier than killing a chicken on top of the printer.
Thank you for the new signature! :lol:
nitewatchman wrote:it was much cleaner and easier than killing a chicken on top of the printer.
User avatar
nitewatchman
Printmaster!
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:51 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Re: Canola Convert

Post by nitewatchman »

You are very welcome!
User avatar
bvandiepenbos
Printmaster!
Posts: 927
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:25 pm
Location: Goshen, IN
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by bvandiepenbos »

nitewatchman,
did you dip the end of filament into the oil then feed into extruder (therefore lubing the inside of bowden tube)?
or remove bowden at hot end and put oil on filament there, so it is only in hot end?

so what would you say, dip about 2" of end of filament into the oil?
~*Brian V.

RostockMAX v2 (Stock)
MAX METAL "ShortyMAX"
MAX METAL Rostock MAX Printer Frame
NEMESIS Air Delta v1 & v2 -Aluminum delta printers
Rostock MAX "KITT" - Tri-Force Frame
GRABER i3 "Slim"
User avatar
nitewatchman
Printmaster!
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 9:51 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Re: Canola Convert

Post by nitewatchman »

Exactly, I dip the end of the filament into a small pill bottle with a screw-on top filled with oil. Probably wets the end 1-1/2" to 2", and then insert the filament directly into the cold end extruder. The oil is dragged through the Bowden Tube and into the Hot End. I hold the red release lever down and advance the filament by pushing it through the tube and into the hotend to extrude the filament out and clear the nozzle of the prior filament. There seems to be a noticeable reduction in the drag required to push the filament through.

May be unique to my machine and my tube or it could be my imagination or mass hysteria, but it seems to work.

This falls into the same category in my world as Colour Television. I have no idea how it works but it doesn't stop me from watching it.
RAMTechRob
Printmaster!
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:00 pm

Re: Canola Convert

Post by RAMTechRob »

I have been having problems down here in Phoenix for the last 10 days. Its been very cold, in the 30-40 range, and I thought that was the problem. Jams all the time and just not able to get parts out.

I tried the Canola oil yesterday and have been printing for the last 24 hours straight with no problems. That seemed to do the trick. I drip a few drops of Canola oil on the filament reel every 2 hours or so.

Thanks for the tip, you saved my day.
travelphotog
Printmaster!
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:30 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama (Marshall Space Flight Center)
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by travelphotog »

bvandiepenbos wrote:I can NOT print PLA with the E3D v6 either.
Retraction 3-4 mm

Guess I need to give the Canola oil a try.


nitewatchman... french fries lol your to funny.

I have been printing almost 90-95% PLA since I got my E3d V6 mounted up.. My 72 Hour saber tooth tiger skull print was white inland PLA and I had no issues. BUT... That was NOT always the case... When I first got my E3d I had the same issues... PLA jammed left and right.,. drove ME MAD!! I also heard of the oil trick and started doing it right under the cold end. I would unscrew it and then feed some PLA out and dip in the oil, then feed it in the bowden tube from the top and let it print after screw it back to the cold end. It worked like a charm... Then I tried a new PLA and while it printed fine, it broke right by the hotend after sitting for a few days and not printing. So i had to remove the tube by te hotend and found a fair amount of oil there and the outside of the tube down in the hotend was oily... I wiped it down a bit and stopped doing the oil.. I do no retract lager then 4.5mm and I have not had a jam since then.. But I did over a dozen prints in a month where I did the oil when I changed colors of PLA before I stopped.

I recall someone thinking that maybe the oil acts on the hotend like oil does to a new cast iron pan and somehow "seasons" it a bit... I have to admit I sort of tend to think that way now also as my E3d works perfectly fine with not oil now and I have done over 60 hours of printer with three different PLA colors doing stuff for Christmas and I had 0 issues with jams or anything else...

I do not claim to have the answer to fix the PLA jamming in a metal hotend (seems most of them have PLA issues) But I do know that my personal experience seems to have been that the oil worked for me, but is not needed anymore for the time being. I will see how it does on the Volcano when it shows up and plan to withhold oil for the start and see how it reacts.
[url]http://713maker.com/[/url] Custom aluminum and carbon fiber hot end mounts for the Rostock Max and Orion.
travelphotog
Printmaster!
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:30 pm
Location: Huntsville, Alabama (Marshall Space Flight Center)
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by travelphotog »

nitewatchman wrote:Exactly, I dip the end of the filament into a small pill bottle with a screw-on top filled with oil. Probably wets the end 1-1/2" to 2", and then insert the filament directly into the cold end extruder. The oil is dragged through the Bowden Tube and into the Hot End. I hold the red release lever down and advance the filament by pushing it through the tube and into the hotend to extrude the filament out and clear the nozzle of the prior filament. There seems to be a noticeable reduction in the drag required to push the filament through.

May be unique to my machine and my tube or it could be my imagination or mass hysteria, but it seems to work.

This falls into the same category in my world as Colour Television. I have no idea how it works but it doesn't stop me from watching it.
I did mine the same way and also had great results.
[url]http://713maker.com/[/url] Custom aluminum and carbon fiber hot end mounts for the Rostock Max and Orion.
McSlappy
Printmaster!
Posts: 809
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 9:11 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by McSlappy »

Sesame oil is my recommendation. I has NO advantage over other oils, just smells awesome :)

I worked out through a long 100+ hour print set that 2 drops lasted me about 8 hours. So once in the morning, then once in the afternoon, then one before bed. Just like the doctor ordered.
I loved my Rostock so much I now sell them in Oz :)
User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by Jimustanguitar »

This makes me want to design a little oiler into my system somewhere. What about drilling a small diagonal hole into the aluminum adapter for the PTC fitting? That way you get the filament through the "torque" section before applying the oil. Figure out a regimen for a drop every 4 printing hours or something like that, and go to town. You could add a sponge or something to meter it out so that it doesn't apply a whole drop at once, just a coating over time...

If you didn't do that, you could also probably adapt one of those filament wipers to do the same job.

I'll have to scheme about this for a while.
User avatar
mhackney
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 5412
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:15 pm
Location: MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by mhackney »

I'm perplexed why folks are having issues and turning to canola oil. What are you retract settings - length AND speed? My experience (and I've been on the soapbox about it for 2 years now) is that a fast retract (anything greater than say 25 mm/s with a 1/75mm filament) are BAD BAD BAD for PLA. I run at 20mm/s and 1.5mm retract and have printer 1000s and 1000s of hours and meters of PLA for almost a year no with NO plugging or issues. Perfect prints every time. If I change retract to 35mm/s I guarantee I'll have a problem.

[url=http://sublimelayers.blogspot.com]Sublime Layers[/url] - my blog on Musings and Experiments in 3D Printing Technology and Art

Start Here:
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361]A Strategy for Successful (and Great) Prints
[/url]
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 521#p64521]Strategies for Resolving Print Artifacts[/url]

[url=http://www.eclecticangler.com]The Eclectic Angler[/url]
User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by Jimustanguitar »

I've been using my E3D V6 for about 3k hours, and I've had about 5 prints fail mysteriously. Once or twice I've walked in on the bed covered in spaghetti, and the other times I've got a flat spot ground into the filament so that it's stopped extruding. My theory is that I've gotten "creep melt" for at least 1 layer in both situations, and the difference is whether the extruder is able to push its way through and keep going or not.

Every time it's happened to me, there's nothing keeping the filament from unspooling, and everything is still stuck to the bed. If I run the same GCODE, it will either work or fail at a different Z-height, so it seems to be something hot-end related.
User avatar
mhackney
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 5412
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:15 pm
Location: MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by mhackney »

What are your retract settings ?

[url=http://sublimelayers.blogspot.com]Sublime Layers[/url] - my blog on Musings and Experiments in 3D Printing Technology and Art

Start Here:
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361]A Strategy for Successful (and Great) Prints
[/url]
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 521#p64521]Strategies for Resolving Print Artifacts[/url]

[url=http://www.eclecticangler.com]The Eclectic Angler[/url]
User avatar
Jimustanguitar
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 2631
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 1:35 am
Location: Notre Dame area
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by Jimustanguitar »

I've been doing 2.8mm at 40mm/s. I'll try backing down my speed a bit and running a pillar test again to check my distance.

It'll be one of those problems that's elusive to conclude whether I've fixed it or not because it happened so infrequently, you know?
jwalrath
Plasticator
Posts: 17
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:00 am
Location: Dayton, Oh

Re: Canola Convert

Post by jwalrath »

Ok so I just tried mhackney's retract settings: 20mm/s and 1.5 mm retract with 192C temp on a 60C hot bed. I am getting little tiny strings all over the place now. Granted I didnt get a jam but I have also been using the oil trick which seemed to eliminate all my jams prior to trying these settings.

-jeff
User avatar
mhackney
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 5412
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:15 pm
Location: MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by mhackney »

Jeff, that's good and the stringing tells me you are likely printing that PLA too hot or it might mean the retract is too short. Remember, I am running an E3D with a .75mm bore length. Try this:

Test at 2mm and then at 3mm and check stringing.

If that works, great, if not back down your hotend temp in 5°C increments and see what happens. I suspect (and have observed) that most people use print too hot - more is better right? I go the other way, I print at the lowest temp that is reliable. These plastics have a remarkable fluid range. Last week I helped a Facebook friend who couldn't print a large object in ABS without it warping and separating from the bed. I've printed MANY large ABS things with no heated chamber. He tried a chamber, raising the bed temp, etc. Then it dawned on me to ask what temp he was extruding. 230°C he replied. I had him do the "find the minimum temp test" and that was 205°C (I recall). He printed at 205 and had no problems! Multiple times. Why? Because the hotter ABS melt shrinks more as it cools. You want to minimize shrinking so use the lowest melt temp you can (and still get good flow and layer bonding).

Can you tell that I've spent way too much time studying, experimenting and measuring this stuff? ;)

[url=http://sublimelayers.blogspot.com]Sublime Layers[/url] - my blog on Musings and Experiments in 3D Printing Technology and Art

Start Here:
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361]A Strategy for Successful (and Great) Prints
[/url]
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 521#p64521]Strategies for Resolving Print Artifacts[/url]

[url=http://www.eclecticangler.com]The Eclectic Angler[/url]
User avatar
mhackney
ULTIMATE 3D JEDI
Posts: 5412
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:15 pm
Location: MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Canola Convert

Post by mhackney »

Jim, of you were at 40mm/s I can almost guarantee that is your problem. I can't tell you how many people I've helped simply by lowering their retract rate - and I've studied this effect for several years now. I wish I had the test equipment to actually measure the thixotropic fluid. I know what you mean about inconclusive but after literally 1000s of hours and kilometers of filament with NO issues I have pretty good data. If I revert to 35mm/s I will have a problem within a week every time. I've done it enough times now to be sure. And, of the dozens of folks I've helped with this, none have had jamming issues since they slowed down.

[url=http://sublimelayers.blogspot.com]Sublime Layers[/url] - my blog on Musings and Experiments in 3D Printing Technology and Art

Start Here:
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=7361]A Strategy for Successful (and Great) Prints
[/url]
[url=http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 521#p64521]Strategies for Resolving Print Artifacts[/url]

[url=http://www.eclecticangler.com]The Eclectic Angler[/url]
RAMTechRob
Printmaster!
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:00 pm

Re: Canola Convert

Post by RAMTechRob »

Hi mhackney, I would prefer to do the retraction correctly, but haven;t figured it out yet. I'm getting tired of cleaning my parts afterwards. Can you give me the Slic3r settings you use?

Length 1.5
Lift Z ??
Speed 20 mm/s
Extra length on restart ??
Minimum travel after retraction ??
Post Reply

Return to “General Tips 'N Tricks”