RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

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spectre6000
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RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

I recently inherited a RostockMAxX V1 (I believe) from a good friend who is moving across country. On startup, the display briefly flashes "Repetier 0.83SeeMe RostockMAX". I tried to figure out exactly what I'm working with based on what I can find on the SeeMeCNC site, and I have to assume it's just a very old model. The display is in the base, the top is a single plate, connection is via USB cable (that terminates inside the base of the machine, though that could be just how my friend built it), and the majority of the device is comprised of laser cut phenolic ply (or similar). I'm very new to 3d printing (this is my first rodeo for sure), but not entirely new to the genre. I was able to get it up and running, and mostly printing, just not very well. If I had only one problem, I think I could figure it out, but I'm fairly certain I have a wide range of issues making for a difficult to interpret solution.

Issue the first: using bright green filament (very old, but from a sealed bag with desiccant in a dry Colorado winter), the resulting print came out brownish green and banded (the intended shade of green and the brownish green). I interpret this as the nozzle getting too hot, then cooling down. There is a fan on the extruder, and it does not come on. I'm not sure if it's supposed to come on though, so may or may not be an issue (call it "issue the first-sub-b"). The machine sat in a garage for a few years, and had accumulated a lot of dust. I cleaned it prior to any use, but there was a noticeable amount of dust in the filament tube. It may have contributed (there were other issues), so I cleaned the nozzle (acetone, then torch). Using MatterControl, I dropped the temperature of the nozzle, and was mostly able to get this problem to go away, but by the time it went away entirely, I seemed to be having cold issues...

Issue 2: The scale seems off. 1mm in MatterControl was substantially less than 1mm in the printed object. I manually scaled things for the test print, figuring I could address this issue once I get a handle on some of the others.

Issue C: Once I got the scale sorta figured out, it got 90% of the way through a 2 hour print (during which I was in another building doing loud hot things), and just stopped. There was no obvious anything. MatterControl just sat there. I'm pretty sure it was still connected, and I think what ultimately happened was I killed the print from there. Obviously the part wasn't finished, but also there was a burned spot with a big oozy booger where the nozzle stopped and sat for some unknown amount of time.

Issue ∏: I decided to back off a step, and try to troubleshoot some of this with a less filament intensive object. I modeled a 1cm cube, and got to work trying to solve issues there. X and Y axes were about 5% too small (too much to account for ABS shrinkage), and Z was long. This sorta goes back to scale, but advances the story in that there are different scaling errors in different directions.

Issue V: The corners of the cube were pulled up. I increased the bed temp, but it didn't seem to affect anything in a positive way. I read immediately prior to starting this thread that models under 15mm may not have enough time to cool, so this could be it. I dropped the nozzle temp all the way down to 220°C (by which point the browning has mostly, but not entirely gone away), but then I started having cold issues AND the corners were curling.

Issue (Prince symbol): Seemingly no matter what I did in terms of z-distance to the bed or temperature, 100% fill would not result in infill meeting sides...

issue that's barely an issue: Calibrating the bed level did not result in the nozzle being able to touch the bed in a few places. It's such a low priority and likely easy fix that I hesitate to even mention it, but I figured I'd toss it up here for completeness since it came to mind while I was typing this. It may be all to one side or something simple like that, but again, with everything else it's a very low priority.

There are probably other issues that I'm forgetting or don't even know are issues yet... I'd love to be able to get this thing to work and printing usable parts. I struggled for years to come up with a way to use a 3d printer in my other adventures, and now that I have one I can't stopping thinking of things to do with it. I'm eager to start making things!
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by Mac The Knife »

Issue C, I assume you were printing the file from your PC, not the SD card? If that's the case, load the file onto the SD card and try again. Your PC may have went into some sort of power saving mode, and interrupted the print.
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

I had a similar suspicion, and adjusted power settings, etc. accordingly. Haven't managed to get that far into a print since though... I don't recall seeing an SD card slot anywhere on the exterior of the machine... Where would it be?
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by Mac The Knife »

Here's where you should be able to find a manual to determine what you have,,,, and if it's rocking the original RamBo board, where the sd card slot is located. https://www.seemecnc.com/pages/downloads
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

That link is a 404. I figured out where you intended, and the manual shows something different than what I have.

I looked at the documentation page, and the documentation doesn't go back far enough. I haven't found a photo of any machines that look much like mine. On page 216, there's a photo of the "Blue Max". Mine looks most similar to that (though there are still a number of differences). The phenolic ply is uniformly colored the dark brown phenolic ply color all the way through. Another difference that stands out is how the extruder is mounted. I'll try to take photos of the machine this afternoon.

I didn't notice that the front opens, but I'll check that out and see if I can find an SD card.

The initial post was getting everything on the table. I'm going to try to get a little deeper here and ask more specific questions.

Issue the first/sub b: When/is the fan supposed to come on? What triggers it? I might have an idea if that warrants investigation if I know what it is expected to do, when, etc.

Issue 2: I need to do some calibration prints, and from there should be able to figure out the scaling. It looks like I can handle scaling on a case by case basis in MatterControl, but I may also be able to do some PID tuning. The latter assumes I have more of a clue than I do, but from what I gather, if I'm so many percent off in a particular axis, I should be able to scale that axis accordingly and solve the scaling issue. Is it better to adjust this in MatterControl or via PID tuning (also through MatterControl)?

Issue C: This was likely a power issue on my laptop. Easily resolved. If that's not what it was, I won't know until I get much further along, at which point this can be revisited.

Issue ∏: I just realized this is the same as Issue 2. Disregard.

Issue V: I found a link to an .stl file in the manual referenced above to a calibration cube. It's 25mm on all sides. That dovetails with the premise that objects under 15mm may not print well because the plastic doesn't have time to cool between layers. I'll use this going forward, and this may resolve that issue.

Issue (prince symbol): Still no plan of attack for this one.

Issue that's barely an issue: This is such a low priority that I'll get to it when I get to it.
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ma8QURJMvEL2Jwj59[/img]
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/LJqTopH91fKfqri6A[/img]
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/P82C5yd8Qt8gci1q9[/img]
[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/RaZ16E9BZYkYVYB39[/img]

Sorry for the weird links... Open in a new tab, and remove the seemecnc generated parts of the URL. I can't figure out how to make them post correctly, and not for lack of trying all the permutations I can think of for posting on these pbb forums...

I lied slightly. The phenolic ply is black on the outer layers. It just seemed phenolic brown because it was reflecting the oak of my desk...

At any rate, once I realized it opened I figured out how to open it, and found the SD card hiding under the edge of the plate holding down the display panel.
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by Mac The Knife »

I see that the forum is adding trash to links to make them inoperable,,,,,, This place has turned into a ghost town. I am surprised that GeneB hasn't popped in, as he had written most of the manuals.
Now that you found the SD slot, try a long print with using that,,,, If It still shuts down, I would be suspicious of the power supply. SeeNeCNC has pretty much switched over to the industrial power supplies instead of repurposing the pc power supplies.
That hotend is a workhorse, but the weak link with it is the use of resistors for heating elements, GeneB has a youtube video showing how to replace them with a heater cartridge.
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

Yeah. Not the hoppin'est juke joint in town for sure. When I dive down these rabbit holes, I typically look for the most active forum. This particular machine is not the most common out there though, and since I'm still not even sure what version it is it's hard to get super specific.

Long story short, I can't be where the machine is for any length of time until the weekend at the earliest (no water, but not for the reasons in the news). My plan of attack at this point is to see what's what in terms of adjusting the bed on the low end just to get a win in the form of some low hanging fruit. Then, I'll print the hollow cube from the manual at that larger scale and see what I can see about the temperature settings. I've been dropping the heat in the hot end and raising the heat in the platten, and it may just be due to the small scale of the test object. If, at the larger dimensions, the corners are able to cool enough to stop curling, I'll be fighting one less variable to get the temperatures dialed in. Temps likely represent a good chunk of my problems.

I still don't know what the software is calling for on the fan though. When/should it be coming on? Now that I've figured out how it opens up, I could conceivably check for voltage at the board (following the extruder with a pair of probes seems like folly).

I think the step after that would be to either scale the model, or dive into PID tuning. I'm a little concerned that proportionally adjusting the stepper motors will be challenging given the geometry of it... Are there any guides for this? It's a lot more complicated than simple X/Y/Z axes (or is it?). Would it just be simpler to write down a scale factor or something, and adjust every single model that comes through (this seems like a hacky solution, but if PID tuning isn't feasible with the geometry of it, it is what it is)?
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by Mac The Knife »

It appears that you have the V1, Myself I have the V2, PID tuning was only used for adjusting the hoteend, and yes, delta geometry makes calibrating the axis travels a totally different animal. If you download the pdf manual for the V1, from the download page, and go about it as if you're building the machine, you will find out about the initiall setup, and calibration routines. From there, this forum has a wealth of information about fine tuning the printer.
There is a Facebook, SeeMeCNC group, but you wold prolly be better off doing searches on this site. Page 152 is where you would find the software installation and confuguration
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by geneb »

The links appear to have been broken with a forum upgrade, I'll take a look.

The forum has slowed way down ever since someone got the bright idea to create a failbook group - it promptly sucked all the air out of the room. :(

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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

Your ears must have been burning, geneb. Mac The Knife said you were likely the guru with the answers. Maybe you can weigh in on the exact version I'm working with based on the photos, or even point me to the exact manual (it was said above that you wrote it). Any thoughts on any of the issues I'm having?

I doubt I'll be joining the Facebook group... I started college the same year facebook started, and at one of the schools it started at (I seem to recall one of the first 4-5). I'm a bit of a selective luddite though. If forums like these are considered social media, this is the extent of my social media usage. The fact that I'm dealing with such an old machine doesn't seem to make it even a very likely source of information.
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by geneb »

This is the manual you want: https://forum.seemecnc.com/download/ros ... -Guide.pdf

I /highly/ recommend you use PLA. ABS is problematic on the v1, primarily because the bed really can't get hot enough.

I don't recall the v1 well enough to answer your questions from memory, but the manual should cover it all.

Did you get the firmware sources from the original owner by chance?

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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

That's the manual I have in my possession. My machine looks different than the one in the manual, but similar to the "Blue Max" on p216. Mine is black.

On startup, it briefly flashes "Repetier 0.83SeeMe RostockMAX". My assumption has been that is the firmware/version. No idea where it came from though. I did not ask, or know to ask, the firmware source. It was a hasty handoff. I'll be chatting with him this afternoon evening though, and I'll ask.
geneb wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:59 pm I /highly/ recommend you use PLA. ABS is problematic on the v1, primarily because the bed really can't get hot enough.
What does it look like when the bed doesn't get hot enough? I think that means poor adhesion, and potentially the curling corners like I saw on my 1cm cube. Adhesion has been fine, and I was under the impression that my curling cube corner problem was due to 1cm^3 simply being too small for one layer to cool before the next is applied. I could be way off base. On so many fronts...

Additionally, please expand on this. I have kilos of ABS filament that came with the machine. What other issues are there? It would be nice to know on if some troubleshooting problem or another is simply a problem of the material selection and not something I did/am doing wrong.
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by geneb »

Printing ABS without a sufficiently hot bed (100-110C) and no enclosure is basically 3D printing on hard mode. If the bed isn't hot enough you'll have adhesion problems. Without an enclosure, you can ruin a print by walking past the printer too quickly - ABS can warp a part right off the bed if one side gets hit by a draft.

Sadly, the v1 bed isn't really capable of hitting 100C - at least not at 12v.

The v1 manual I pointed you at is good for pretty much all flavors of the v1 - the printer on the cover is named Orange Menace and shows the original "Steve's Extruder".

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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

Last night I finally got a few minutes to mess with it. I figured I'd shim the bed and tackle that lowest hanging fruit first. Turns out, the screws were barely a few threads into their inserts already, so shimming even a mm meant they no longer bit. I had a McMaster-Carr order already queued up for a different project, so some longer screws ended up on the bill...

I'll probably try to get my hands on some PLA too and eliminate one further source of problems/variables.

Recapping to this point, several of my issues seem to be temperature related. Scaling issues will likely be solved in software.Two birds may be killable by dialing in the scaling issues using a larger model (specifically, the 2.5cm^3 model in the manual).

One issue not addressed is the failure of the fill to fully meet the sides and itself. Essentially, each layer is barely more than a coherent squiggle that manages to stick together by virtue of the subsequent layer's crossing. I experimented with varying distances to the bed on the first layer, and was also working with layer thickness on the not-first layers, but was likely dealing with too many issues/variables to get any reasonable progress. Any thoughts on this?
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by geneb »

Can you dump the EEPROM settings using MC and post them? I'm curious to see what your steps/mm and a few other settings are.

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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

Ask, and ye shall be dumped upon.

Code: Select all

Baudrate|250000
Filament printed [m]|949.89
Printer active [s]|524571
Max. inactive time [ms,0=off]|9000000
Stop stepper after inactivity [ms,0=off]|6000000
X-axis steps per mm|80.00
Y-axis steps per mm|80.00
Z-axis steps per mm|80.00
X-axis max. feedrate [mm/s]|200.00
Y-axis max. feedrate [mm/s]|200.00
Z-axis max. feedrate [mm/s]|200.00
X-axis homing feedrate [mm/s]|80.00
Y-axis homing feedrate [mm/s]|80.00
Z-axis homing feedrate [mm/s]|80.00
Max. jerk [mm/s]|20.00
Max. Z-jerk [mm/s]|20.00
X home pos [mm]|0.00
Y home pos [mm]|0.00
Z home pos [mm]|0.00
X max length [mm]|367.30
Y max length [mm]|367.30
Z max length [mm]|366.20
X-axis acceleration [mm/s^2]|3500.00
Y-axis acceleration [mm/s^2]|3500.00
Z-axis acceleration [mm/s^2]|3500.00
X-axis travel acceleration [mm/s^2]|3500.00
Y-axis travel acceleration [mm/s^2]|3500.00
Z-axis travel acceleration [mm/s^2]|3500.00
OPS operation mode [0=Off,1=Classic,2=Fast]|0
OPS move after x% retract [%]|50.00
OPS min. distance for fil. retraction [mm]|0.80
OPS retraction length [mm]|1.50
OPS retraction backlash [mm]|0.00
Bed Heat Manager [0-2]|1
Bed PID drive max|255
Bed PID drive min|80
Bed PID P-gain|15.00
Bed PID I-gain|0.90
Bed PID D-gain|40.00
Bed PID max value [0-255]|255
Extr.1 steps per mm|92.00
Extr.1 max. feedrate [mm/s]|40.00
Extr.1 start feedrate [mm/s]|10.00
Extr.1 acceleration [mm/s^2]|3500.00
Extr.1 heat manager [0-1]|1
Extr.1 PID drive max|205
Extr.1 PID drive min|60
Extr.1 PID P-gain|11.63
Extr.1 PID I-gain|0.43
Extr.1 PID D-gain|78.65
Extr.1 PID max value [0-255]|255
Extr.1 X-offset [steps]|0
Extr.1 Y-offset [steps]|0
Extr.1 temp. stabilize time [s]|1
Extr.1 temp. for retraction when heating [C]|150
Extr.1 distance to retract when heating [mm]|0
Extr.1 extruder cooler speed [0-255]|255
Extr.1 advance L [0=off]|0.00
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by geneb »

That list looks short to me - it's missing things like the horizontal radius & delta rod length. What IS shown looks ok though.

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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by spectre6000 »

That's the entirety of the EEPROM export from MatterControl. It flashes "Repetier 0.83SeeMe RostockMAX" on startup, which I assume is the firmware version. The manual references v0.94, IIRC. What are the odds the missing parameters would be introduced in a firmware update?
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Re: RostockMax V1 + noob + lots of issues and not sure where to even begin

Post by geneb »

When you go into the EEPROM editor in MC, does it show the horizontal (delta?) radius field like I show in the docs?

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