Wires don't match instructions... ARGH!

[teoman]

A link to the thread where some one is removin all the wires from the psu would help a lot.

[RegB]

2nd all the nice things recently said about SeeMeCNC folk & their continuous improvement policy and ESPECIALLY GeneB for his documentation.
AFAIK GeneB is an UNPAID VOLUNTEER doing this because... he's just a NICE GUY (-:

I wanted to add that the rat's nest of wires coming out of the power supply is some function of the "evolution" of desktop PCs.
For whatever reason(s) the power loom became an "integrated part of" the power supply, which might seem a little ODD with three decades of hind sight, but it is part of the "deal" we get when we use generic off the shelf parts (fer cheep).

Good 'nuf engineering R us, etc.

BTW, I left all the unused connectors ON.
Yes, it is unsightly, but it wouldn't have been much tidier if I had chopped them all off and wrapped tape around the LIVE ends.
If ever I want to go back in to use say +5 volts I can probably find it easiest from the connector that it is known to be on.
B'sides, they're all coiled up and stuffed in (somewhere behind the X tower) and once the covers are on... what the eye doesn't see, etc.

[geneb]

[Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Jerk Alert! SNARK INBOUND!]

In March of 2013, there were about 2500 Rostock MAX machines in the wild. Based on how hard the guys have worked to keep up with an ever increasing order volume, I'm going to guess there's probably double that number out there now. Say 5000. I'm going to guess that they've probably shipped around 1000 Orions.

My email address is on the very first page of all the manuals. Since the very first edition for the v1 came out in early 2013, I've received emails from fewer than 15 builders asking for help or clarification. The emails the SeeMeCNC guys have been getting asking for help on the build have never resulted in them asking me to clarify a point - this alone tells me that out of the many issues that the manual has, clarity is not one of them. Trust me, they're a small business and a high volume of tech support questions would FOR SURE make them contact me to have an adjustment/clarification made. They simply don't have the staff to cover the inadequacies of a bad manual.

We currently have 3105 people signed up for the forum. Out of that 3105, there's probably a core of about 75 that post on a semi-regular basis. Most of the discussions regarding the actual build fall into two categories.

1. "my computer has it's foot in a bucket and isn't playing nice."
2. "I've got my foot in a bucket and I'm having hell of a time calibrating this technological tribute to man's ability to make himself into an alcoholic."

#1 Has at one time or another, happened to us all.

#2. Is caused by the reality that while the math that drives these wonderful machines of ours is perfect to the nth decimal place, the poor mokes that both make the parts that go into the machine and the ones assembling it ARE NOT.
The calibration process is the act of making that wonderfully accurate mathematical model of Delta geometry play nice with the vague realities of human frailty long enough to keep the ongoing floating point fist fight from spilling out into the parking lot. Most of the time that works and a subtle truce between the two is formed, albeit with frequent hostile glances across the build platform.

Neither of these points are ones I have any control over and no amount of creative writing is going to get you out of dealing with. [That being said, there's some Sooper Seekrit Awesomesauce in the works that will make all our lives easier!]

That leaves us with you, Dear Reader. The one that doesn't like how I've written something and is just positively SURE I should drop my full time day job, my myriad of hobbies, and my lovely wife, just in order to rewrite a 281 page assembly manual to suit your taste.

If I were you, I'd place heavy bets on the heat death of the universe, because I can guarantee you that's gonna happen first.

*drops mic*

g.

[lightninjay]

*Slow clap* Hoe mah gawd, Geneb, you are my hero!

Well said, my good man. For what it's worth, I found your manual to be entirely informative, and am also a big fan of lace cord on electrical wiring.

[GPriv]

[Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Jerk Alert! SNARK INBOUND!]


That leaves us with you, Dear Reader. "The one that doesn't like how I've written something..."

g.

Dear Geneb-

Speaking strictly for myself I believe I never said that I do not like how you've written the manual. I believe I only offered suggestions to clarify certain parts. Allow me this time to say a heartfelt "Thank you" for the work you put into it. Trust me with this: I KNOW the time and effort it takes for just ONE aspect of all that you've created with it (the pictures, the arranging of parts for the pictures, the references, the organization of references, etc., etc., etc.). Again, Thank You!

The following is in NO WAY an endorsement for political conversation, in NO WAY stating or endorsing a political affiliation, in NOW WAY endorsing a political party, and lastly in NO WAY endorsing Romney or any of his political views:

There is a reason that "The 3%" exists.
Fill a room with 100 people of any race, color, creed, etc., and 97 of them will be followers.
A leader does NOT accept the mundane and carry on. A leader questions--even if the answer is obvious--because by asking a simple question a greater knowledge will ultimately be derived. A leader has an unquenchable thirst for attaining a greater knowledge.
Upon reading the facts of ownership and membership I chuckled. Had you asked me to "guess" at these facts I know I would have been close in my estimation of the reality Geneb stated. Sadly, most people in our society are followers. They accept the mundane, do as they're told, shudder at the thought of questioning authority. Ever read Orwell's ANIMAL FARM? The Horse--Boxer--represents the masses of society.
One of my personality quirks is the desire for clarity. Oft times I find people have engaged in heated debate only to learn that they are debating two entirely different subjects, or they share the same opinion but simply were not clear on stating what their opinion is. I only ask for clarity with certain aspects of the instructions. The penny in the photo (for size reference) or the simple statement like, "...no other wires are used so you can tape up the rest, and tuck them out of the way, or remove the cover of the power supply and cut them down to nubs at the point of contact with the circuit board..."

Alas, I feel the room getting warmer. The atmosphere is heating up. The cool ocean breeze is suddenly feeling like the blast-draft you get opening the oven door, and the aroma of baking brownies is lost on the speed of evaporating milk inside my tall glass. Hell has arrived.

But never mind that! My 3D printer is close to being finished thanx to the awesome manual and Geneb!!!!! Cannot wait!!!

[geneb]

I didn't have any issue at all with your question. I'll be doing a new spin of the manual soon and I'll try to be more clear with the power supply wiring. There's no way in hell I'm going to recommend that someone pop the supply open and clean up the wires. 4 would do it right and 1 would either electrocute themselves or set their printer/table/house on fire.

I do know this - if the Rostock MAX is your first kit, you won't hesitate to build another kit after you're done with this one. It's not a beginner kit by any means, but it certainly can be a confidence builder. Worst case, the guys here on the forum have your back. We can't do it for you, but we'll damn sure come together to make sure YOU can do it.

g.

[Brian]

A link to the thread where some one is removin all the wires from the psu would help a lot.

I have not had a chance to publish full documentation of my build. It will have to wait until I'm not so busy.

[Brian]

I didn't have any issue at all with your question. I'll be doing a new spin of the manual soon and I'll try to be more clear with the power supply wiring. There's no way in hell I'm going to recommend that someone pop the supply open and clean up the wires. 4 would do it right and 1 would either electrocute themselves or set their printer/table/house on fire.

I do know this - if the Rostock MAX is your first kit, you won't hesitate to build another kit after you're done with this one. It's not a beginner kit by any means, but it certainly can be a confidence builder. Worst case, the guys here on the forum have your back. We can't do it for you, but we'll damn sure come together to make sure YOU can do it.

g.

The numbers you quotes for the sales estimates make it seem like a standalone 12V only supply with a screw block for terminations could be had for the same price as a 550W PC power supply. You're almost at that point.

The better answer would be for the people who make the controller boards to integrate a power supply on board itself and eliminate the wires altogether. But that's not happening yet as far as I can see.

Until then, people will have to follow the directions (which were clear to me) and the user base can help those with questions. I know that the kit is not being represented as a beginner kit by any means. People will just have to be honest with themselves about their skill level. I remember coming across a review of the Rostock Max on youtube from a guy who had all kinds of trouble with the build. He blames his problems on the printer. Seeing how hard people worked to help him convinced me the review was bogus and the company was good.

[teoman]

I think the kit is good. Manual is also very good and clear.

Things like cleaning powersupply is really for the retentive types (which is most of us). You end up stuffing the excess wires in there somewhere and never see them again

Built in PSU is not convenient as then you cannot feed different voltages to different modules of the printer.

[GPriv]

There's no way in hell I'm going to recommend that someone pop the supply open and clean up the wires. 4 would do it right and 1 would either electrocute themselves or set their printer/table/house on fire.

I do know this - if the Rostock MAX is your first kit, you won't hesitate to build another kit after you're done with this one. It's not a beginner kit by any means, but it certainly can be a confidence builder. Worst case, the guys here on the forum have your back. We can't do it for you, but we'll damn sure come together to make sure YOU can do it.

g.

It's a great feeling to know you walk thru life with peops having your back. Friends, indeed.
Damn funny about the place going up in flames. I hear you on the possibilities!

This is my first kit--for a 3D printer. The second one I'll be able to put together nearly blindfolded. I am a true-blooded McGyver-type. I can build/rebuild anything. I have that kind of mind that can almost see the exploded view in my head and use a God-given bucketful of intuition to make it all happen/work. My complaints were simple... and, as stated, my queries were more for clarification on the intricacies of the stuff that I do not know if it'll all make a huge difference in the end. Get it? In other words, I like the fact of knowing that all those extra wires are not being utilized...so in the timely manner I can just do away with them.
Enough said on the topic. You get it.

[Brian]

I think the kit is good. Manual is also very good and clear.

Things like cleaning powersupply is really for the retentive types (which is most of us). You end up stuffing the excess wires in there somewhere and never see them again

Built in PSU is not convenient as then you cannot feed different voltages to different modules of the printer.

I'm afraid I am going to have to disagree with you, since the power supply architecture of the current design does not work as you suggest, and is actually quite inefficient.

The design as built uses an ATX power supply with multiple outputs (3.3V, 5V, and 12V), exactly one of them is connected to the printer. The 3.3V and 5V supplies are not used, and only take up space and add cost to the printer. Only the 12V supply is connected to the printer electronics.

Not surprisingly, the printer electronics don't operate on 12V. This is only really used by the motors and heaters in the printer. The actual electronics (memory, CPU, display, etc.) run off of lower voltages like 3.3V and 5V. But how is this possible, since the power supply doesn't connect these voltages? The answer is simple: the RAMBO board incorporates completely separate power supplies to convert the 12V from the PC power supply to the 3.3V and 5V it needs.

So, what good is having a separate power supply architecture, then you're not using the separate power supply to get all those extra voltages in the first place? The extra supplies in the PC supply just waste space and waste money, since they are not used.

Putting everything on one board would eliminate a ton of waste, and if you really wanted to use those other voltages for some custom mod, they could always provide a place on the main board you could connect your own wiring to for that.

[geneb]

I don't know of any COTS power supplies that are both single-rail (12v only) and plug & play. By using a PC power supply, they're able to get a UL certified power supply that plugs right into the wall without exposing the user to AC voltage. If they were to go to a single rail supply, the builder would have to do the AC wiring themselves, which is a big no-no, primarily for liability reasons.

Now Lulzbot ships a single rail 12V supply with their machines, but they're doing the AC wiring themselves. It wouldn't be cost effective for SeeMeCNC to do the same when an off the shelf ATX power supply does the same job. (The TAZ kit from Lulzbot is $1595.)

Yes, there's some "waste" going on, but it also offers extra rails to those that want to use them for accessories. Another upside is that if the power supply does fail, they can go to any computer store to buy a replacement on a moment's notice.

In a perfect world, Ultimachine would produce a RAMBo board that had an ATX connector on the side and life would be all unicorns and happy places. Until that point, we need to run with what we've got.

I WILL say that for an enterprising soul, there exists an opportunity - a little board with an ATX connector on it that breaks out to a pigtail to custom fit the RAMBo.

g.

[Brian]

3D Printing at the moment is at about the same state of personal computing as the Apple I was when it was released. Everything was sort of hand assembled by the end user and they had to tweak and customize everything and it was not very user friendly. Look where PCs are now.

We all know that one day that 3D printers will be mass produced and probably commonplace. At some point some company is going to have to take the steps from hobby tinkerer construction to a more volume production device. When that happens, they are going to have to move to more integrated and purpose built electronics.

The RAMB0 for example has a lot of extra stuff on it that isn't needed for a stock Rostock or Orion. It also has a relatively weak CPU based on an architecture that is derided as "Training Wheels". At some point someone will make a purpose built controller with only the things needed for a specific printer included. This will lower the build and assembly cost and make the effort worthwhile as production rate will increase and the design will reach more people. It's an important step toward making 3D printing a commodity.

[Polygonhell]

I don't know of any COTS power supplies that are both single-rail (12v only) and plug & play. By using a PC power supply, they're able to get a UL certified power supply that plugs right into the wall without exposing the user to AC voltage. If they were to go to a single rail supply, the builder would have to do the AC wiring themselves, which is a big no-no, primarily for liability reasons.

FWIW at one point I was looking at selling a printer kit, I happen to dislike the use of ATX power supplies,for printers, my partner contacted a PSU manufacturer in China and the quote to have one of those stand alone 12V supplies with an attached power socket instead of the exposed connectors was actually not unreasonable, the runs didn't even have to be that big.
I absolutely agree on the no one in there right mind should ship a kit which requires end user AC wiring, if you look at the number of wiring issues posted on here, I can imagine what requiring AC wiring would turn into.

[BONE]

[Danger Will Robinson! Danger! Jerk Alert! SNARK INBOUND!]

That leaves us with you, Dear Reader. The one that doesn't like how I've written something and is just positively SURE I should drop my full time day job, my myriad of hobbies, and my lovely wife, just in order to rewrite a 281 page assembly manual to suit your taste.

Warning Sarcasm:
Yep, I totally said that you need to drop everything and re-write the manual right now. Your meaning in life is to now focus on the manual full-time.
End Sarcasm:

Now, I also did not say that my comments were something that most be done to the manual in the future. Instead I was suggesting that the manual should be written in a more technical manner. I thought that was implied, but I guess I was wrong.

I've also stated a couple times on this and other threads, that I couldn't have put the kit together without the manual as it is in the current state. I am just stating my thoughts on things that I think could be better or improved upon, it's up to the people at SeeMeCNC to ultimately make the decisions on what Delta owners have to say about printers and manuals. Take it as you will. If you would like me to just keep my thoughts to myself, just tell me so.

[GPriv]

see Fig. 13-11
Is there a problem if I solder this instead of crimping? I hope not. I soldered it....

[teoman]

Yes there is.

It heats up a lot. And the solder re melts and dribbles out on to the print.

And if it relies on the solder to keep an electrical connection it can go bad.

[Brian]

even more awesome is when the solder melts and the heater wire comes loose and shorts out against one of the other wires, which (depending on the random luck) will blow up:

a) A fuse on the RAMB0
b) The Thermistor
c) The RAMB0
c) Any combination of the above.

Don't solder those connections!

[Eaglezsoar]

see Fig. 13-11
Is there a problem if I solder this instead of crimping? I hope not. I soldered it....

Please do not power up the printer again until you get the chance to fix those hotend connections.
The hotend is one of the connections you cannot use solder on and if you do, you have a 100% chance
of the connections failing when the solder melts and you risk your rambo card and other components plus having
the possibility of starting a fire. Unsolder the connections and twist together the resistor wires and secure them
by using a crimp tube as is indicated in the instructions. Don't think we don't know what we are talking about
and solder will work, it will not work and I pray that you fix it before you turn that printer on again.

[Polygonhell]

Having done this several years ago on my first printer, as many have mentioned solder won't last, it doesn't exactly melt per-se it evaporates and eventually the connection fails. When that happens as others have mentioned the best case scenario is your print fails, the worst is you end up with a hotend wire shorted against a thermistor wire and you destroy the RAMBO board.

[GPriv]

Got it.
I haven't turned printer on yet. Still in the build.

Question: Why is it okay to solder the thermistor leads? (I assume because these don't carry the heat/power as do the leads to the hot end...)

thx!

[Brian]

The thermistor leads are very long and thin and so they don't conduct much heat all the way to the solder joints. The solder joints connect them to a comparatively heavy gauge wire (compared to the thermistor lead), which acts as a heat-sink for any heat that comes from the thermistor lead. It wicks away the heat so the solder joint never gets very hot.

The hot-end resistors are connected to thick leads which carry a lot of heat to the joints, and they are doubled up on each end, so you have a lot of heat transferred from the heating elements (resistors) to the solder joints through those thick leads.

[GPriv]

Thanx, Brian.

Eaglezsoar,
..." Don't think we don't know what we are talking about..."
I made a bonehead move; I asked if it were okay because I didn't know. I never made any such assumption that the "we" were boneheads, too.

[Eaglezsoar]

Thanx, Brian.

Eaglezsoar,
..." Don't think we don't know what we are talking about..."
I made a bonehead move; I asked if it were okay because I didn't know. I never made any such assumption that the "we" were boneheads, too.

I never assumed anyone was a bonehead, you all bought a Seemecnc printer and that places everyone in the smarter than average category.
Have fun Printing!

[BONE]

I never assumed anyone was a bonehead,

Careful, I'm sensitive when it comes to my last name.