Of Pink Elephants and Melamine Bonfires

[EL Cuajinais]

I can’t for the life of me get my printer to print near the 11” diameter, and I’m not alone in this. I’ve seen many threads about this issue simply fizzle out, the problem never being solved. Spreadsheets have been created, calibration programs compiled, bounties have been offered, all in an attempt to make this god-forsaken printer perform as advertised. The same troubleshooting advice has been repeated ad nauseam, only it rarely has solved anything.

I’ve grown EXTREMELY FRUSTRATED by the lack of help from SeeMeCNC. You only get the awesome forum members who, with the best of intentions, always suggest the same laundry list of 10 to 20 things that can be checked, all of which I think I’ve covered by now. Except for an exorcism, which I haven’t tried… yet. You have to wonder how many more SeeMeCNC customers have this issue but don’t notice because they always print smaller objects. Or they simply buy a second printer for the big prints, not wanting to deal with this headache. I don’t doubt the 11” diameter print volume works for many people, but I see that it does not work for many us as well. It is worth noticing that most delta printers have a print bed that does not stray away from the triangle described by the three towers. I think there is good reason for that. The SeeMeCNC printers are more ambitious in that the print bed is a lot larger than the triangle, only it doesn’t really work for many of us. But they advertise that it does work.

It is possible that if a play with the many EEPROM variables NOT MENTIONED IN THE MANUAL I may eventually get it to work, but there are just too many variables. I’ve dabbled in it, and there is nothing on the manual on this. This is more a job for a computer, which is what is being attempted with the smoothie board z-probing. I can’t continue to sink money and time into this thing, only for the possibility of having it work as advertised. I have a wife and family I've been neglecting in my obsession of trying to get this thing to work. Smoothie board, z-probe sensors, trick laser arms, metal frame, just to see if it works as advertised. That’s basically a whole new printer, which incidentally, is what I see most of the veterans here have. I read they are always working on a “new build”. I would never consider a “new build” if the thing performed as advertised. I feel I’ve paid my dues in money, and most of all in time and effort. With my mechanical engineering background and the ridiculous amount of hours I’ve spent on this thing, I am owed a printer that can print the full 11” that was advertised. If I can’t get this POS to print per spec in around 50 hours of troubleshooting, the problem is with the printer, not me. To be clear, all would love and praise on my part, as it was in the beginning, if the spec sheet mentioned the print volume had a diameter of 6”. But that is a hypothetical scenario because I would have never put down $1k and the very long build time, for that print volume. I would have instead purchased a different printer. If I can’t get this to work soon or sell it, I’ll probably be doing a Rostock Max V2 bonfire at the beach and posting it to Youtube, exorcism included. I own a small video production company on the side so I know a thing or two about creating compelling video. This POS has tortured me so that if it goes, it will go out with a bang. At least this way it will serve to entertain thousands of people; it certainly hasn’t entertained me as of late. Instead of me spending countless more hours messing with EEPROM settings, I’d rather spend those hours editing a professional video. At least I’ll know the result I’m going to get at the end of my 50 hours of work, and I won’t need to spend a dime. If you’ve ever seen Groundhog Day, feel like Bill Murray when he loses it and kidnaps the groundhog Anyway I’ve read many here have had similar infuriating thoughts of tossing their printer out the window, or in the trash. A more sensible poster simply turned his SeeMeCNC delta into a cartesian printer. I wish I had the energy, but I’m exhausted at this point. I forsake the day I chose a delta instead of a cartesian. KISS is always the best policy, everybody knows that. I’ve regretted a few things in my life, and buying this printer is one of them. In this day and age where one is accustomed to being able to return defective items, it is infuriating not being able to return this printer, (for obvious reasons). Going into it, I KNEW building this printer and setting it up was going to be a challenge. But at this point, with all the time and effort I've put into this printer without seeing the expected results, this must be considered false advertising.

In one of the older unsolved threads complaining about this very issue, someone expressed that he did not see Rostock Max V2 as a product. Instead, he saw it as just a kit “facilitated” by SeeMeCNC. I think SeeMeCNC may not agree, but for myself, I could not agree more with this statement. Repeated here for emphasis: The Rostock Max V2 is not a product. It is simply a bunch of parts cobbled together that “mostly work” when assembled. And this my friends, is the crucial piece of information that I DID NOT KNOW coming in. I thought I was buying an unassembled product. Like a Lego for adults. Boy was I ever wrong. I’ve done several DYI builds before, but this caught me completely off guard because to me it looked like an unassembled product. On my previous DYI builds, I've had to source all the components myself from shody websites that accept only PayPal, and the instructions were all scattered, there was no build manual. Everything about the RMAX V2 looks like a product, only it isn’t. I feel deceived. Well live and learn I guess. When something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

Still, the pink elephant in the room must not be ignored any longer. This needs to get addressed, and serious consideration must be given to changing the print diameter on the spec sheet while this gets addressed.

[radicaldev]

How much do you want for it?

[Nylocke]

FWIW, they sell it as a "DIY Kit". Its an in development product technically, as is with most products. Hell, the whole RepRap project is in development. I've seen more cobbled together printers (take the cobblebot for example, its even in its name)

[KAS]

What size can you print without any issues? I might of missed your other post but I couldn't find any images.

I just printed this 10" circle and had to turn all speeds down to dreadful slow. Once I got past the nervous part, I started turning it up to 60mm/s without issue.

Just skip through the video, it's not worth watching the play by play.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBVcTB_wrpM[/youtube]

[bot]

Nobody was ever debating a 10" circle! It's the 11" circle that, I believe, is physically impossible for the printer to fully reach. I see you have a far-from-stock printer anyway, so of course you'll get better performance than a stock machine.

[Jimustanguitar]

I can't do a 10" circle. I'd be lucky to get 6 or 7, actually. When I go around the perimeter, my effector to bed distance varies by about 3mm.

There is more than 1 issue at play here. Some people claim to not be able to physically reach the edge, like their arms aren't long enough, and others just can't get it to print flat enough to stick in some places without burying the nozzle in the glass in others. I've been fighting the latter.

[KAS]

"Thanks you very much for your reply. Hey I’ll take a 10.5” diameter any day! " That was a quote from him in another topic about this issue. I guess what I'm getting at is post a few pictures and let the community help or at least try to. That's why I bought the kit; awesome community willing to help.

Yes, I have the typical upgrades; Trick trucks, arms, and E3D v6. The new steppers I feel hamper my ability to print further but I'll increase the current and keep testing.

It's really about calibration and print settings, nothing really mystical about it. I use a digital angle finder to square the towers and dial indicator hanging off the effector to level the bed. Nothing crazy, but it's working for me.

[bot]

It's also about the physical limitations of the parts. Can you do me a favour? I have a print going, so I can't check myself, but can you try and position your nozzle ON that white line? Will it even move there? Last time I tried, using my hands to position the nozzle, the arms stopped moving farther... there was physically no more motion to allow the nozzle to be put on the line. The white line (if the bed is centered) represents, I believe, a 280mm diameter.

[KAS]

It's also about the physical limitations of the parts. Can you do me a favour? I have a print going, so I can't check myself, but can you try and position your nozzle ON that white line? Will it even move there? Last time I tried, using my hands to position the nozzle, the arms stopped moving farther... there was physically no more motion to allow the nozzle to be put on the line. The white line (if the bed is centered) represents, I believe, a 280mm diameter.

It's hard to get a decent angle for the pic because how high my nozzle sits. It just about reaches the edge of the glass.

[KAS]

I just tried between the towers and it's right on the line. With the stock trucks, it might not each at all.


Edit: The cheap skates are thicker than the trick trucks, that should make them longer. Either way, I don't think it's possible to print a full circle at 11". My trucks are touching the the plate when extended out to the line between towers.

[bot]

Ah yes, I neglected to realize that there would be a difference at the towers vs between. I was trying to do it between the towers. Thanks for the test.

[Glacian22]

I can reach the white line, but I'd have to take off my cooling fan to print a circle quite that large. I've successfully printed circles just a tiny bit smaller than that though, so I'm fairly confident I could. In terms of leveling, even after rigorous calibration there's still a very little bit of variance between outer edge points near the towers and points between the towers, but I've compensated for that with some small folded paper shims under the glass between the towers, and a thick first layer.

So I think it is possible to print an 11" circle with the stock setup (I just have upgraded arms and hotend, nothing that should affect the printable radius), but getting a good first layer will take patience. Mine's a V1 btw.


**EDIT** I just realized that one of my mods DOES impact the printable radius. My Prometheus hotend is mounted *below* the effector, and that does give me a little more reach.

[stonewater]

stock hotend and tricklaser arms. nozzle is about 5 mm away from the white line between the towers.

Tom C

[EL Cuajinais]

How much do you want for it?

$1500 shipped. Matterhackers sells them assembled for more than $2K. I can't find the reference unfortunately, but I'm almost certain it was $2400. And if you have experience in shipping or receiving a partially disassembled Max2 I would love to hear suggestions.

This one is assembled, is white and has all the edges painted white, has the PEI bed upgrade, and 12V wiring from the power supply with individual voltage regulators for LEDS. The little LEDS on the towers were designed to hide the cables, and are removable for when you need to print a large object, the one thing I could never do. It comes with a .35 nozzle installed and a new unused .50 nozzle. I'll throw in some other misc. stuff like a SMCMC spatula and an unopened roll of purple PLA.

Here is video I made tonight so you can see it in all it's glory:


[youtube]https://youtu.be/P7ywTEpUanY[/youtube]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7ywTEpUanY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't know why the forum is not embedding it. (Hey, I needed to create something since the damn printer will not let me create the large part I designed.)

[radicaldev]

Dang, that was a nice video! Can't see spending that much on a mostly stock, allegedly broken, max though.

[Dale Eason]

Just tried on my all stock RostockMax V2. I can get just over 10.5 inch diameter circle printed using PLA and painters tape. Just larger than that and the cheapskates bottom out on the top surface of the base causing the steppers to skip. If I sanded about 1/8 an inch off of them I think it would work. Or I could lower the hot end by shortening the spacers. I have no problem with wavy bed or nozzel lifting off the bed across that diameter. My machine was purchased as a kit and built by me in March 2015.

Dale

[Dale Eason]

So is the PEI on top of the Glass plate or on top of the Onyx bed? If just on the heated bed then that would make the problem worse since the cheapskates will not get low enough. That will reduce the diameter even more. A quick fix if you don't need heat is to raise the build plate till cheapskates clear. Is that a possibility?

Dale

[KAS]

Doesn't look like the OP is interested in what can or cant happen. We don't know if he can print a 5,6, or 7" circle without issues so jumping straight to the edge is useless.

Either way, it looks like he's selling it.

[geneb]

Have you contacted SeeMeCNC directly? Note that posting here is not considered "contacting" them directly.

It's my understanding that when printing that far out, the machine has got to go VERY slowly or it doesn't work. I don't recall the why of it. Also, understand that to print out to the white line, you've got to have your calibration nailed and nailed good. The Rostock MAX can physically reach and print out to the white line. I've seen it done.

g.

[IMBoring25]

I think I've read the speed limit comes in because, as one or more of the arms flattens out, it takes a lot of motor steps to make a small movement of the effector, and the 8-bit controller struggles to pass that many steps that quickly.

With stock arms, trucks, and hot end for now, I can manually move the effector over what, on average, approximates the area depicted by the white line, a little further out at the towers and a little short between them. I also have it tracking nicely flat across the bed. My struggle is with what appears to be circumferential tower lean giving me slightly trapezoidal squares that I haven't yet figured out how to correct.

[EL Cuajinais]

First of all thanks to all who have responded. Truly. This community is really awesome. I feel this forum is the best asset SeeMeCNC has at the moment.

Yes, I’ve exchanged a chat conversation directly with a SeeMeCNC representative. In this conversation, I learned this particular person does *not* square the towers per the manual when building a printer. He just guides the extrusion into its place and that’s it. This makes perfect sense to me, as squaring the towers was the one thing from the manual I could never do. I remember I must have spent 5 hours trying. It was impossible since moving one tower moves the other two because they are all coupled at the top. In the end, I got all three square by *not* trying to get them square. Once I tightened them where they lay naturally, and squared to the glass, instead of the Onyx, all was fine. He went though the usual laundry list of things to check, most of which I had done at the time.

According to the rep, my issue is very rare, though there are many threads here that would indicate otherwise. He said they have dealt with fixing a printer like this only ONCE, out of thousands sold. And the way they “fixed” it was by shimming the bed. Which we all know in most cases would not really be a fix, but a bandaid. I assume he was referring to Justin’s printer. As evidenced by Justin’s post above, the bandaid came off and the printer is back to a 6” diameter print area.

It sucks that a prospective buyer thinks of my printers as “damaged goods”, even though it has never sustained any damage. That is what is so infuriating. My printer has only 7 days, 18 hours of print time. Of course I’d probably think the same where I in his position, which is why I feel SeeMeCNC should look into this. I’ve been known to sometimes pay more for a product, in BestBuy for example, just because I know the product has an unreliable reputation and I need the assurance that I can return it if it does not perform. Applying that same logic, my smartest move would have been paying for an actual, assembled, more expensive printer on Amazon, where I could return it if it did not work. I tell you what though, it is a great business model for SeeMeCNC while it lasts. Not having to deal with any returns, always assuming any performance issue is the fault of the customer.

The first sign that I had made a bad purchase was when my extruder motor started chewing up PLA due to overheating. This happened in spite of me using the correct current specified on the manual for the steppers my printer came with. I found the correct value buried somewhere in these forums, but all the customers who assemble their printers per the manual will be chewing up PLA frequently. The poor souls. That disturbed me quite a bit. The second, less serious but also a red flag, was the fact that the layer fan shroud specified on the manual, bumps into the binder clips when printing to the advertised 11” diameter. The third is the issue being discussed here, which everyone knows about but for some odd reason chose to brush over it and cut SeeMeCNC a huge amount of slack. The 11” print diameter unicorn. It looks like no one, or a very small number of owners can do it. It’s more like a rumor. A rumor that is squarely planted on the RMAX V2 spec sheet. *THE* rumor, that has undoubtedly led to the “thousands of sales” the rep told me about. Because on the spec sheet, that rumor makes the RMAX V2 quite possibly the best value proposition in consumer 3D printers. Only it isn’t. In reality all we have is varying degrees of failures. Some fail to get 11” by fractions of an inch, some fail by multiple inches.

As for testing this issue, in my case I don’t even need to print the leveling aid anymore. All do is use my laptop to lower the nozzle and give it the commands to make it travel horizontally across the bed. In the space between the towers, near the edge of the build plate, the nozzle lifts. Speed of travel does not seem to matter, but I’m not 100% certain. It lifts most between the X-Y towers, least is between Y-Z. But it will pinch the paper “just right” in front of all towers and the center when performing a horizontal radius calibration.

Also something of note: In the first one or two days when I first assembled my printer, I was able to print the bed leveling aid repeatedly. But this was using PLA on the glass, no PEI. I was satisfied my printer was working right and I never had the necessity of printing something large until now. And I never tested it with ABS at that moment because it would have been a hassle due to the glue stick. Now admittedly, the leveling aid is a lot smaller that the build diameter, but I can’t print that outer circle on the leveling aid now. I’ve not tested PLA recently but I don’t need to, since I can see my nozzle visibly lifting when I command it to move across the bed. The PEI sheet seems to be level, and rotating the build surface does not transfer the problem to another area. The issue is the nozzle not traveling straight, not print surface flatness.

Thanks again. And hey can someone please tell me how to embed a video on this forum?

[Jimustanguitar]

He said they have dealt with fixing a printer like this only ONCE, out of thousands sold. And the way they “fixed” it was by shimming the bed. Which we all know in most cases would not really be a fix, but a bandaid. I assume he was referring to Justin’s printer. As evidenced by Justin’s post above, the bandaid came off and the printer is back to a 6” diameter print area.

Yeah, JJ had me fixed up just right and then I upgraded to a newer version of the heated bed and haven't been able to recreate his magic. I'll take the credit for screwing up JJ's fix

Odd that some people have to warp their bed to make it work, and others don't have to. I tested with a dial indicator on a piece of mic-6 tool plate and got the same results, so it's the effector travel that's wrong, not the bed flatness. I'm starting to suspect that I actually have bent aluminum extrusions... That's the 1 thing that I've never changed. I'll give it a try and report back to the group.

Jim

[bot]

I think a lot of the problem is that usually (or always) there is SOME variation in the plane of the "bed." For me, as the effector travels towards a tower, the effector will be slightly lower in Z than when it travels away from a tower. This makes it hard to calibrate it exactly, because the points directly in front of the towers are actually "supposed" to be lower, not the same, as the center. This basically results in the user having a horizontal radius that is too high.

I would recommend taking a risk, dropping the horizontal radius by 0.5mm, and just try a print. then level the towers by eye based on a print. Print somethign substantial. with a big solid layer of infill. The bottom of the first layer will tell you everything about your calibration.

[radicaldev]

Cuajinais,

The price of a brand new, shiney, never-been-mussed-with, still burnt melamine-smelling Rostock MAX V2 is $999 and probably about $150 shipped.

I'm just saying, you're having problems with it, and asking for more than that. Obviously the better choice in my position is to buy a new one.


I digress..

I bought my printer from SeeMeCNC because I like their company, I like their community, their printers look awesome, and they are affordable to me. I bought a delta printer because of the potential if you get it right. I was miffed that my Orion Delta (a factory assembled "product") didn't do what I wanted it to do right out of the box, but I also didn't really expect it to.

Honestly, I was pretty dissappointed on day 0 when the Y tower woudn't home. Turned out that the wires run by the dude who built the machine for the Y tower endstop, were routed between a sharp edge and the loosely-held-in-place power supply, and as a result of the mail people seeing a FRAGILE sticker on a box and reading that to mean ABSOLUTELY INDESTRUCTIBLE TANK, one of the wires for the endstop was severed, and the other partially severed.

Some quick wire stripping and soldering, and I was able to print out blinky with no issues. I can still print out blinky with no issues, along with drywall anchors and other stuff, but printing out a box that is 112x56x25mm (4.4" of the claimed 5") is proving a challenge, and I've spent hundreds of man-hours trying to work it out, and I really NEED it to work because the business I'm building depends on it working.

I can PRINT it
[img]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o637/radicaldev/20150505_184915.jpg[/img]

and it is pretty strong
[img]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o637/radicaldev/20150505_233034.jpg[/img]

and the dimensions are right in the important places, but the thing looks like hell.
[img]http://i1151.photobucket.com/albums/o637/radicaldev/20150505_232415_1.jpg[/img]


Of course, I do all the same things as you, like neglecting the wife. My child isn't born yet (coming in ~12 days, though!) , but he'll undoubtedly neglect his mom when he's old enough to drive the thing, too.

The key difference, I think, between you and I, is the fact that I recognize 3D printing as being a remarkably new and totally awesome technology, where the people involved are currently a mix of smart people with little experience in the field, and a bunch of not-as-smart people with even less experience (I believe we both fall into the latter category), and it seems you would liken the technology to something like refridgerators or inkjet printers, where the former group now has TONS of experience, and the latter is able to be completely ignorant of everything and still have a good time.

It's unreasonable to say that a company less than 5 years old, producing an experimental product in an experimental field, should get it right the first time, or even the fifty-fifth time. I think it's incredible their junk works at all, and I really hope that 10 or 15 years down the line when things are a little more mature (and hopefully still legal in the states), that they're one of the top contenders in the game, just because I like their style. It takes balls to do what they did, and a lot of skill to actually make it work.

Yeah, my Orion is a finicky little bastard, and is standing between me and my dreams at the moment, but I don't regret the purchase, or have anything but the utmost respect for the company who made it, the engineers who brought the tech to life, and I am very satisfied with it being my first dip into 3D printing. I've learned a LOT about the technology, a LOT about CNC machines, a LOT about the programming involved therein, a LOT about the industry, a LOT about the chemical properties of plastics which, until I started 3D printing stuff, I had never really cared about, a LOT about 3D design, and all kinds of other stuff.

The only thing I would change if I could go back, is I would have bought a Rostock instead of the Orion.

$1300 for a solid intro-to-everything-i-think-is-cool is pretty reasonable. I paid about 18 times that to the IRS last month, and they don't do anything for me at all!

Ultimately, you just gotta know what you're getting into. Blazing trails with new technology is quite often an epic endeavor, not to be attempted by the feint of heart.

[BenTheRighteous]

It definitely sucks that you're having troubles and I've got nothing but sympathy for you in that regard. However, I don't think it's fair to blame SMC for not swooping in to provide some kind of warranty support.

Any time you buy a kit, it's pretty much "here are the parts, good luck." As a seller, you certainly hope that the buyer has some sort of aptitude but if they try and put the thing together by banging pieces with a rock, should you be on the hook for that when it doesn't work? Obviously not. What about if the buyer accidentally spilled coffee all over some critical piece, but it's totally okay because they left a hair dryer pointed at it for 2 hours on maximum and there's no way there could be any heat damage or sticky residue gumming things up, right? Or what if they were working on it at 4am and made some silly wiring mistake deep inside the machine, but were too exhausted to realize it before sealing it up? Should the seller be on the hook for all these events they can't possibly control? I'm not saying any of those apply in this case but you see my point. It's completely reasonable for SMC to just shrug off any and all problems beyond factory-faulty components, and any additional support they provide is pure courtesy.

Long story short, a 3d printer is not like a refrigerator or vacuum where each item is identical to the next, the manufacturing process is tightly controlled, and the product usage is well-understood. In fact a 3d printer is pretty much the total opposite of anything you would typically expect to carry a warranty.

You also have to keep in mind that in general, people who create accounts and post on these forums did so because they were having problems. There are countless people who get their printer, build it, it works, they're happy - and they never post here. So those who DO post aren't an accurate representation of the customer base. You can't meaningfully say that "lots of people have this problem" when you see 5 people post about it - is it 5 out of 20 or 5 out of 10,000? No clue, the only thing you know for sure is that you're not alone.

Again, I know how sucky it is to have problems with your machine, but it's not fair to direct your anger at SMC unless they're doing something particularly scummy, which doesn't seem to be the case here.