Need Advice On A Few Issues

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staticbunny
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Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

In my quest to upgrade my V2 to print exotic materials I think I've made it function less consistent. I added the e3d v6 and carbon fiber arms. I also did the air-struder http://repables.com/r/531/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; with the flex-struder. I was getting pretty good prints till my PLA started jamming. It seems like heat creep because it's not the nozzle because my extruder will get backed up and grind the filament a little and cause it to click. I switched back from the air struder to the standard bowden length because I thought something in the new setup. So with that said here are my questions.

PLA Jamming:
Why now all of the sudden am i having issues with PLA? I have read what i could about this and my peek fan looks like, but it couldn't hear to swap it out with a slightly bigger one right? Also I've seen some discussion about the nozzle modification to fix this issue. I;m confused if that mod is only for older e3d nozzles or would actually help my v6 which is only a could months old.

Ninjaflex:
I've tried so many different things and it's just so temperamental its driving me nuts. I have a bunch of things I need printed but even with an extruder to keep the filament from bunching up. i'm currently running the flex struder http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:488678" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but i've tried a few others and there is still issues. has anyone tried anything like this? http://micron3dp.com/products/cobra-j-h ... ble-feeder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I've seen it possible posted once as a question but no one responded. I know seemecnc is selling a new ninjaflex that works a bit better but i already have 4 rolls of the original i want to use. So im thinking of either trying direct to the hotend or a flexable driver like this http://mutley3d.com/Flex3Drive/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . They are both really costly though so I;m wondering if i could just build something myself with a Nema 11 with planetary gears. I could work out something like this http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:612535" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but smaller footprint.

I'm also running into more minor issues with the print layers shifting sometimes and under extrusion. I think this these might be related to my PLA jamming issues and me switching extruders.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by KAS »

The biggest issue I see with PLA and the E3D v6 is the retraction length. I've had decent success around 1mm to 1.4mm, any more than that I would get the PLA jams.
staticbunny
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

i switched back to the air struder so I'm giving ninjaflex a try again then I'll test PLA.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by McSlappy »

PLA is my favorite filament for printing, but one of my least for hot-end issues. The best and most consistent solution I've found is adding a drop of Canola oil (or sesame) to the filament when loading it. Seems to last over 10 hours and makes PLA print flawlessly.

No need to mod the nozzles - the oil worked on my old V5 too.

I did see a thread over at e3d where someone had used Arctic Silver (or other CPU heatsink compound) when installing the heatbreak. The idea being that a better thermal transfer from the heatbreak to the heatsink would solve PLA issues. For at least the 2 people that tried it, they had good success.

PLA is both a pain and totally awesome!
I loved my Rostock so much I now sell them in Oz :)
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by Eaglezsoar »

McSlappy wrote:PLA is my favorite filament for printing, but one of my least for hot-end issues. The best and most consistent solution I've found is adding a drop of Canola oil (or sesame) to the filament when loading it. Seems to last over 10 hours and makes PLA print flawlessly.

No need to mod the nozzles - the oil worked on my old V5 too.

I did see a thread over at e3d where someone had used Arctic Silver (or other CPU heatsink compound) when installing the heatbreak. The idea being that a better thermal transfer from the heatbreak to the heatsink would solve PLA issues. For at least the 2 people that tried it, they had good success.

PLA is both a pain and totally awesome!
I wonder if KY Jelly would work as well?
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

Forget Ninjaflex for now, it's not worth the high blood pressure till i can get PLA working first. I think my problems are related to my extruder for part of the issue. I changed my hotend and extruder around the same time so I wasn't sure which was the cause. The main problem I'm facing is filament sometimes just stops coming out like I'm clogged. First I thought this was related to my nozzle being too close to the bed which would cause the filament to back up, then cause heat creep and and make my extruder skip. So I recalibrated and got an almost perfect first layer on painters tape. Before this I also disabled my hotend to make sure everything was tight because the heatsink and heat break were somewhat loose before. After this I STILL got some issues. I almost seemed like an adhesion issue(filament was coming out uneven or skipping areas) like the nozzle was too far away but this happened in the middle of an area that layered perfectly. I think the extruder isn't getting enough torque or something and then causes something to happen similar to heat creep. Sometimes I need to pull the PTFE tube out from the hotend and clip the filament to get it printing again.

I'm going to try the heatsink compound fix as well as building/buying a new extruder. Just trying to decide if i should go with the cobra or the flex3drive. The cobra looks like it might be the way to go but also be a gamble because i don't think i've heard anyones review of adding it to a delta or rostock. So might have to design something to keep it secure to the effector. I know the flex3drive already has some files on thingaverse for the rostock and the person says they are very happy with it. They are both the same price in the end otherwise I would just buy the cheaper one. If I'm going to spend money I want to be able to print flexable filament and staying with a bowden doesn't seem to work.

(Note i also am going to make sure to shorten my retraction length, i did this before but didn't save. I need to make sure i'm not doing too many changes at the same time so i can make sure to know which thing changed my results. The retraction would be key because if you retract too far the melted filament won't go back in)
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

i switched to a transparent PLA filament that is a bit harder than the other filament i was using and it made a difference. Also it showed that retraction was for sure an issue because as soon as retraction started happening more when moving back and forth between two parts it started skipping again and jammed. I had to keep pulling the filament out of the printer and clipping the end to keep the print going. This all with 1.2mm retraction. I'm going to try .50mm at 75mm/s. Also my extruder stepper is crazy hot I can't even hold it in my hand so that might be an issue too.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

Ok so I'm getting pretty frustrated since I've been working on this issue for a few weeks at least and it's still happening after trying everything. I even disabled retraction. It got me a few more layers in but still causes skipping and clogs. It's really interesting that the problem happens in the same place you would have a lot of retraction. Short areas that are far apart. So just the simple act of stopping and starting a lot kills it. I really think it's the e3d v6. Also did a perfect cold pull and I think it totally shows something wrong. It seems too long as well as having a spot in the middle looking like it's catching on something. It should be smooth all the way the exit right? Can someone took a look at the picture of it?

http://imgur.com/Yng1b5w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by IMBoring25 »

I've not run PLA through my v6 in a long time, but I saw something somewhere about using slow retraction speeds and cut mine back to 10 mm/s, which dramatically improved some blobbing and stringing issues I was having with my ABS and PC. The same would probably be better accomplished by lowering jerk and acceleration on the extruder axis in the firmware but since reaching settings that work well I haven't kept fiddling (yet).
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by mhackney »

I've written about almost all of the points in the following post in various threads here, including my build thread. I have 100% success (absolutely no PLA jamming in well over a year, printing Ninjaflex, printing carbon composite PLA, etc) and here's the "secret".
  1. There is no one quick fix. Read and practice the suggestions in my two posts linked in my signature. I get literally 100s of emails from all over (not just here) about how these have helped people achieve consistent results. It works, invest the time to try it.
  2. The E3D hot ends work perfectly well for PLA and do not jam. I'm living proof. I don't use canola or other band aids to get it to work. Make sure your bore length is short - .5mm to .6mm is a good target. This makes a huge difference, especially with Ninjaflex.
  3. Next, make sure the fin cooling fan is as low as it can go. Not cooling that bottom fin makes a big difference in how far up heat travels.
  4. Use minimal retract settings. I get away with 1mm. If you do the math (volume calculations) that is more than enough to move a .4mm diameter filament well out of the nozzle.
  5. This may be the most important of all - use a SLOW retract speed. I use 20mm/s. I have parts that if I increase that to >30mm/s I'll get jamming everytime, at 25mm/s I get NO jamming. You can use a fast advance (45mm/s) if your slicer supports it (the newest KISS does at my request). By far this is the thing that helps folks most when I give "service calls". Let me repeat this, its that important, USE SLOW RETRACT for PLA.
  6. Polish the tip of your nozzles. A piece of old denim jean works fine. Once polished, make sure the orifice is round. I insert a sewing needle and push it in to shape the opening. I measure a point on the needle that is .40mm diameter, mark it with a marker and insert to that point. Now you'll have a round, sized opening with no burs. Very important.
  7. Now, turn to the Bowden tube. Make sure to take out the slack at both ends at the PTC fittings. You do this by pulling UP on the inner plastic ring while seating the tube into the fitting. Again, very important.
  8. Make sure the Bowden is not too long and has a nice arced path. Make sure both ends are deburred.
  9. Now on to the Extruder. You can use a stock ezStruder for PLA but will struggle printing exotics like Ninjaflex and the wood and bamboo killed materials. You'll get the best results if you perform a few modifications:
  10. - use the extra E3D black plastic PTC at the extruder end. You will need to drill out the aluminum coupler that is fitted in the extruder. No need to thread it, epoxy will hold it in place just fine. This allows you to push the Bowden all the way to the drive gear in the extruder - after you ream out the black plastic guides so it passes though. This is critical to be able to print flexibles like Ninjaflex as it supports the filament all the way to the drive gear in one continuous path.
  11. - upgrade the stepper to 5.18:1 Kyson (or equivalent) geared stepper. You will get so much more power from this. The stock ezStruder at slow print speeds (200mm/s or so) is right at the ragged edge. Step up your stepper and you'll get much better results.
  12. - the teeth on the drive gear can be too sharp. I like to debut.dull mine a bit with 400 grit sandpaper. If you see a pronounced ridged pattern on your filament (especially hard filaments like PLA) you might try this.
Of course, I am assuming you have your E3D assembled correctly and the heater block and heat break tightened properly per instructions. I'm also assuming you've read my posts (signature) and have started making progress. In particular, do not use raising the melt temperature as a band aid to get better flow, it perplexes the problem. Profile your filament and use the lowest temp for the job. Make sure to calibrate your temperatures so you can compare apples to apples with others who have calibrated.

If you want to learn why slowing retract is critical, search my threads for "hydraulic jamming" and read all about it. I've conducted experiments now for over 2 years to understand the thixotropic behavior of molten PLA. While not a silver bullet, I've helped a lot of people simply by getting them to slow down retract speed. Note that ABS is not nearly as sensitive and I retract at high speed with it.

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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by mhackney »

staticbunny wrote:Ok so I'm getting pretty frustrated since I've been working on this issue for a few weeks at least and it's still happening after trying everything. I even disabled retraction. It got me a few more layers in but still causes skipping and clogs. It's really interesting that the problem happens in the same place you would have a lot of retraction. Short areas that are far apart. So just the simple act of stopping and starting a lot kills it. I really think it's the e3d v6. Also did a perfect cold pull and I think it totally shows something wrong. It seems too long as well as having a spot in the middle looking like it's catching on something. It should be smooth all the way the exit right? Can someone took a look at the picture of it?

http://imgur.com/Yng1b5w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
staticbunny, those grooves along the length of your filament are from the drive gear in the extruder. I lightly snd mine to make them less sharp. These little grooves can catch on edges inside the extrusion path. Especially if you haven't taken the slack out of the PTC fitting as in point 6 in my post above.

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staticbunny
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

What about the notch right in the middle? It looks like I might have a leak. Like my nozzle isn't screwed in far enough.

Also thanks for all the info and putting it into one place. I've disabled retraction for the time being to take it out of the equation. My last setting was .5mm at 30mm/s. I'll try all the hardware points you mentioned as I haven't done any of that.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

Also how do you measure bore length? That is the length of the nozzle hole right? I think I asked this previously, maybe I missed the response but I thought it was only on v5 nozzles? I don't know it I could accurately drill out the current length to .5mm. If you have a nozzle I can buy/trade for that would be helpful.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by mhackney »

I described my method to measure bore length here: http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php ... 675#p37166" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Basically you measure the length of a drill bit, then insert that in the nozzle and measure the length and subtract. Verify with a cold pull. Search

V5 nozzles were all over the map. V6 are much better but best to verify! It's easy to drill, you use your fingers to turn the drill bit. That makes it go slow and no risk to ruin it. I sell prepared nozzles for $150.00 each (just kidding, I don't sell them at all but what they heck!). Just do it as they say.

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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

haha, cool man thanks for clearing that it i really appreciate it. I honestly did try searching for bore length but only found conversations about it as well as not being sure if it was different for V6. Using the drill bit to measure and shorten it totally makes sense now that i see how it's. I'll pickup a 2mm drillbit on the way home from work today and give it a try.

heck if someone will buy one for that price I'm not gonna knock you for it, haha.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

measured a few nozzles from .35mm to .6mm and they all had a bore length of around 1.4 to 1.6mm with .4mm nozzle being the longest which is the one i was using normally. I did a cold pull yesterday to i could see through with no issues to confirm nothing was blocking. I used a 2mm drill bit so I'm not 100% sure if my measurement is correct because in the e3d nozzle diagram it looks to taper from around 2mm to 1.5mm before the actual bore hole. I still used a 2mm drill bit to bore out 1mm so now i have around a .6mm bore length for my .4mm nozzle. I'm printing now and I'll let you know how it goes.

Side note my fan was actually not on the first cooling fin which i fixed as well. I accidentally blocked the fan while doing this and attempted to test and the filament melted all the way up into the boden tube. So yeah, the fan helps...
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

Still clogged up after drilling out the nozzle to .6mm and polishing the tip.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by mhackney »

Did you go through the complete list above (at least the easy stuff)? You should not be clogging. I suspect you either have too fast retract and/or too high temperature and/or you are not sufficiently cooling the hot end and/or you have the heater block/nozzle not assembled to spec. Check those first.

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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

Yup i think i've got all the main stuff you listed except the last two? i've totally disabled retraction. I completely took apart the hot end and made sure everything was connected correctly and not loose. The heatbreak is just like in the picture of the e3d setup and i fixed the fan not going down to the last fin. I did the whole nozzle rework and i could tell it made a difference and gave me really great results while printing was working fine. I can post a picture if you like.

I've noticed that the print usually fails after gaps in the print. It has something to do with timing. Like it the filament stops too many times it gets jammed up. I've been going back and forth on the extruder and hotend trying to figure out which one is the issue. Right now I'm using singh's flexable filament hot end which has worked great before even when the stepper was hot as hell. I just totally reworked my whole hot end so it should be fine. I'm going to buy some new gear today such as new PFTE tubing and better stepper motor with more torque. If that doesn't work I'll probably just buy a new hotend and extruder from micron3d.

Also.. can you go back to the picture i posted showing my cold pull? I know what the gear marks are. I'm talking about the little expansion in the middle like I'm having leakage. Is that where the bowden tube meets the break and they aren't connecting cleanly? Or is that from where the break meets the hotend and they are flush? I've done two cold pulls before and after the nozzle bore fix and they both have that notch in them. The send time the PTFE tubing was way out so it should't be from that. I'm wondering if there is a gap between nozzle and break or some other weirdness going on in the depths of my hotend.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by mhackney »

Yeah, that little blip is puzzling! I can't see how you could extract the filament without it smoothing out or breaking off. Also, if it is that big of a gap I would expect to see some leakage.

You need to estimate where this occurs when the filament is in the tube. If it is at the Bowden type to break then you have a problem in that the filament should not be melting that high up the cool zone. That would lead to all sorts of jamming. Is the unmelted part of the filament with the grooves on it (about 1cm it looks) about the right length into the hotend? If so, you have a cooling problem for sure. That is way too short.


Actually, in thinking about it and looking again now, your melt zone is WAY too long so you must be getting thermal creep. Can you post a photo of your hotend setup and cooling fan please.

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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

http://imgur.com/4Kad6yN" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://imgur.com/fmLhNlu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://imgur.com/I73xdKo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://imgur.com/pLJkKZJ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I really appreciate you taking a look and helping me out with this.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

It looks like the break and hotend had a gap. Whol;e figuring that out one of the wires to my heating element broke so I'm down for repairs till i get another. I might update my firmware to roll back to the seemecnc hot end if I'm feeling upto it.
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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by mhackney »

Ok, that is the first place to start then. You can buy the cartridges from eBay for cheap and fast shipping (just make sure to check ship dates as many of the Chinese vendors take forever).

I don't see anything obviously wrong with your hot end setup.

Is your nozzle screwed up all the way to the aluminum heater block? If so, it isn't supposed to be. It not, then that gap would allow it to twist in and out and it isn't tightened against anything.

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Re: Need Advice On A Few Issues

Post by staticbunny »

quick update on my issues. I've gotten my new parts and setup my volcano and it's working great but sill minor issues. I think my peek fan is crapping out on and off so I've ordered a new one. Also ive noticed that my extruder isn't gripping like it should and getting enough force on the filament, so I'm glad i ordered a cobra all metal extruder.

The volcano is great! If anyone needs to print bigger and stronger parts it's perfect for that once you get the extrusion width dialed in. This post got my pretty close on the first try: http://www.soliforum.com/topic/9985/e3d ... -settings/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just need to fix the jerk speed as that seems to be causing issues.
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