Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

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DeltaCon
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Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by DeltaCon »

Hi,

I have been using my secondhand (so did not build myself) Max V2 with pretty good outcome. But those were all small thing... Now I plan on building the Raymond Style heat chamber, and am Trying to print those brackets, which are much bigger than anything before. But now problems arise in floods...

.1.
The print does not seem to stick very well. I am using UHU stick. I set my Z-Height wit a piece of A4 80gr/m2 standard office paper. I know that I should preferably use thinner paper but I have none. Instead I set the Z so that the paper just fits and is not easily moved. Besides that I have set the first layer at 80%. Still it does not stick. That's strange because smaller parts stick just enough to get printed fine. And before I had these problems the first layer was set at .3 while I have a .4 nozzle. (using layer height of .2 and a first layer speed of 20 and bed temp of 100 by the way). On the pictures below you can see the end corners of the object curling slightly already after the second layer.

.2.
Since today I noticed that during transport of the carriage the Z is not lifted. In fact the nozzle draggs over the current layer and sometimes rips the layer loose from the previous one. I never saw that before. In the settings I adjusted the Z-lift from .3 to .5 trying to prevent this from happening. It looks however that that has entirely no effect... Could this have something to do with changed retraction setting? I read in the forum here that lots of people use too large retraction. I changed that from 6.4 to 5mm and decreased the retraction speed from 120 to 60 (for ABS by the way). Are these odd values?

.3.
Looking at how the first and second layers are being layed down, it strikes me that there is so much difference in how "thick" the lines are looking. At some places it looks like a solid layer, and at other places it looks like an extra line would fit between them. I checked for resistance in the filament patch, but I can find any. What else could be the cause of this?

Any ideas are greatly appreciated!

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/endscurling.jpg[/img]
You can see the round edges of the print already curling up after the second layer, especialy the one on the left

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/layertoothin.jpg[/img]
Here you can see that in the lower left corner the threads are suddenly less think or fat. Also the adhesion the the previous layer is null. When the nozzle transports over it, the strings are completely disconnected, because somehow I get no Z lift during transport.

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/bedfacingside.jpg[/img]
This is the backside of the print afterwards. As far as I can see the first layer is nicely pressed against the bed with UHU stick. Nevertheless it has barely any adhesion.
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
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Captain Starfish
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Captain Starfish »

A few things spring immediately to mind:
1. UHU stick is crap. I tried it, then went to the trouble of tracking down Elmer's purple vanishing glue and the difference was enormous. Or get some acetone, make up a slurry of ABS scrap and apply with a brush - stupidly good bed adhesion that way. Keep the slurry watery though, if it starts getting thicker like gravy then you get bed adhesion that's too good, with a risk of pulling chunks of glass out of the bed!

2. 80 weight paper as a gauge should be fine. And the last photo indicates that the zero height looks about right.

3. First layer should be cranked UP, not down, to really smoosh the plastic into the bed. I run mine at 120%.

4. The missing lines indicates a potential feed issue, looks like the nozzle is jamming then freeing up.

5. The lack of inter-layer adhesion indicates a potential temperature issue. What temp setting are you using for ABS? I generally run at 255º on an E3D hotend, but on a standard SeeMeCNC hotend I used to run 240º.

5a. What you set on the temp may not be what you're getting. A thermocouple on a multimeter can be had for twenty bucks or less, and the reading on that when the machine thinks it's at setpoint can really surprise you. There are a few threads on here about calibrating your thermistor, which might help.
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gajtguy
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by gajtguy »

DeltaCon - Your point #2 is exactly what I've been trying to figure out as well.

As far as bed adhesion - Make the ABS slurry. It's awesome. One of my prints actually stuck too good and pulled chunks of the glass off with it...
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Xenocrates »

When I was printing those, I had similar problems with the Z lift on the raft, although that ripped it off the bed a few (four) times before I figured out what was wrong. Matterhackers know about that and are working on it. The adhesion between those specific layers tells me it may be an air gap issue. Check that setting under skirts/rafts. If it's more than half your nozzle diameter, or signicantly greater than your layer height it makes issues.

For the extrusion thickness thing, is it approximately divided into thirds/sixths? It may be the endstops are miss adjusted.

Slow the first layer of the raft (not the part) to about 70%, to try to avoid the lack of Z lift on the raft causing issues.

keep printing until the actual part body is warping. Part of the reason for mouse ears like that is sacrificial, so that you can have some warping/peeling without scrapping the whole part.

Elmers does reasonably for adhesion. ABS slurry I found was a bit hit or miss for me. PEI seems to have no problems when applied properly I'd try the Elmers for now, and go for PEI long term, as it's cheaper and easier to maintain over time, reducing TCO.

@gaktguy - Is that for rafts only, or the entire part? If it is rafts only, that's a known issue with matterslice/mattercontrol, which has been duly reported to them. I actually found that out while I was printing these same parts, and apparently it was not something they'd previously known about, or at least it hadn't percolated down to the support staff on Email duty.
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by DeltaCon »

Thanks all for the input.

.1.
Okay, I bought some UHU stick locally after reading some good 3D-printers reviews on that. Already ordered some Elmers already through Amazon because we can get that stuff locally. I'm curious about the difference. But for the time being I made some slurry. First try is hopeful, but it warped significantly after a layer or 20. Guess I have to make the slurry a bit thicker. (see picture below).

I don't understand the remark about the first layer thickness... I thought that when I set the first layer height to 80%, the filament would be squished down on the bed extra hard. When I make that height 120 percent, the nozzle would not press at the layer at all and so it would stick less. Am I misunderstanding this?

.2.
So I understand that the problem with the Z lift is an issue with the file itself? Oh, that's not something I need to worry about then ;-) Can you tell me something about your retraction rates nevertheless please?

.3.
I see similar patters always at almost the same spots... Could it be a dimple in my boroglass perhaps?

I took all your advice and must say that it looks to be improved significantly. I will keep you posted on any progress!

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/gettingbetter1.jpg[/img]
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Xenocrates »

I think the first layer thing refers to extrusion rate. not the originator of that, so I'm not sure.

The Z lift is an issue in the slicer. Looks like now you're printing without a raft, which eliminates the Z lift issue, but makes adhesion harder. Also, it looks like you may be running a little hot on that ABS, but it's hard to tell.

Those spots- Do they line up with the towers at all? It may be the endstop offset is off. Otherwise, yes, it's a bed issue. Mattercontrol has a bed adjustment setup in it, but it's flaky to set up.

My retract settings will be useless to you, since I run an E3D V6, and so have a retract of ~2.5. I also suggest you crunch that part up a bit with a set of pliers, and use that for your slurry. A light sanding of the bed with rather high grit paper might also help, as it gives it more grip surface. But that can cause issues later, and isn't 100%. Try that as a last resort. Before that, cardboard box, and a space heater. One of the ones without fans. Helps some with warping until you can get the chamber done. keep it warm, but not really hot.

Lastly, are you sure you have a .4 nozzle? SeemeCNC AFAIK, manufactures a .5, a .35, and .7. .5 is what most ship with. I only just realized that.
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Glacian22 »

I've always used hairspray for bed adhesion, and it's been great.
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Captain Starfish »

Ja, sorry, I was referring to a 1.2 extrusion multiplier not a layer height multiplier.

Elmers in Australia, PITA to get hold of. I ended up buying a 3-pack from a school supply mob in New Zealand.

MatterControl's bed leveling only adjusts the tower zero heights AFAIK, it still assumes a planar bed. Very handy though.
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by DeltaCon »

Xenocrates wrote:I think the first layer thing refers to extrusion rate. not the originator of that, so I'm not sure.
Hmm, I interpreted as "extrude the filament for one layer into space for .8 layer". But the tooltip in MatterControl indeed says that putting in a larger layer is better for bed adhesion, so you are probably right and I will try.
Xenocrates wrote:The Z lift is an issue in the slicer. Looks like now you're printing without a raft, which eliminates the Z lift issue, but makes adhesion harder. Also, it looks like you may be running a little hot on that ABS, but it's hard to tell.
Yes, this time I was printing without raft, because I thought the surface of the bracket must be big enough for good adhesion. I indeed cranked up the temp on the E3D from the standard 228 to 240 in an effort to ease the extrusion. A bit on the warm side I guess, and I lowered it 5 degrees now. I have an infrared thermometer in order, that will be delivered next week. So I will be able to tell you the real temp it reaches.
Xenocrates wrote:My retract settings will be useless to you, since I run an E3D V6, and so have a retract of ~2.5.
I also have an E3D V6. My retraction setting was at 6.8 or something, and I thought that to be very high. However I read somewhere that that is not unusual for a bowden type extruder. I lowered it to 5, should I lower any further?
Xenocrates wrote:Lastly, are you sure you have a .4 nozzle? SeemeCNC AFAIK, manufactures a .5, a .35, and .7. .5 is what most ship with.
Actually a very interesting question! I can't find any reference to the nozzle diameter on the nozzle itself. Nowadays they have dots, this one hasn't. I "have been told" that it is a .4. Looking through the mattercontrol settings I see that .5 is the default value, where I thought is would be .4 so I changed that. How do I measure the nozzle? I do have some nozzle drills at .4 and they fit as "nicely" as in a .4 spare nozzle I have laying around, so I guess it really is a .4, but obviously thenozzle parameter in mattercontrol was wrong. You would expect a much larger problem with that! ;-)

What do you make of this:
[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/SlurryComingLoose.png[/img]
The juice beneath the object is completely removed after just one print. I thought that on one preparation of juice you could print more than a few objects?
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Captain Starfish »

Rafts, generally, aren't needed. They also chew up a tonne of time and filament. Some parts though, they're the bees' knees for getting things stuck down and happy. Learning which parts? Yeah, still learning here :)

I think the standard e3d v6 nozzle is a 0.4mm but worth just extruding 10mm and checking with your vernier calipers (or a micrometer if you have one).

Unfortunately IR thermometers don't work on reflective objects like, for example, a hot end. Or so goes the conventional wisdom as read from this forum at least. You may find the results are not accurate.

My v6 is running on about a 2mm retraction and seems a lot less jammy like that than it did with 7mm. Strings like a bastard though, especially with nylon - finished prints typically look like ten generations of spiders have made them their home.

Get a metal paint scraper for lifting parts. After 40 or 50 prints the light scratching of that scraper on the glass will give the ABS juice something to mechanically key into. Alternately, you can rip the arse out of the glass face with a coarse linisher. Works pretty well.

I ended up getting a blank PCB sheet of 300mm x 300mm, then chucking it in a CNC and cutting the circle out and then running 0.75mm holes in a 10mm square grid. Even that needed running through a sander before ABS would stick properly but now it's pretty good. And, with nylon, it's absolutely superb.
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by DeltaCon »

I am sorry, but Google Translate got the arse part, but not the linisher :mrgreen:
What's that?
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Mac The Knife »

DeltaCon wrote:I am sorry, but Google Translate got the arse part, but not the linisher :mrgreen:
What's that?
sandpaper,,,, on a block, or electric sander.
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Captain Starfish »

DeltaCon wrote:I am sorry, but Google Translate got the arse part, but not the linisher :mrgreen:
What's that?
Apologies. A linisher is basically a belt sander laying on its back and bolted to the bench. Google image search will give you the idea.

"Tear the arse out of" = aggressively remove material, deeply score. With "arse" spelled using proper English instead of the "Simplified English" that's so popular in some places :D
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by DeltaCon »

Hi all,

I want to thank you all for your assistance. I am glad to be able to show you a nice, self-printed, unwarped Raymondstyle Enclosure bracket, that was the topic of this thread all-the-way! ;-)

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/OK_wholething.jpg[/img]

I did not use a linisher to make the surface of the glass bed coarse, but I did use a painters soft sandpad and worked the surface of the glass for about 5 minutes. You can barely see any scratches, but obiously it was enough for the object to stay sticked during printing. When the bed cooled I could pop off the object without force though, so maybe I will repeat the glass treatment once more just to be sure.

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/OK_closeup.jpg[/img]

It still looks rather rough and the layers are pretty distictive, but in realiry it is rather good. The distict layers are an effect of the higher temp I printed with and the fact that that makes it a bit glossy. I think I will take down the temp another 5 degreees to get a bit more matte effect.

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/OK_bottom.jpg[/img]

Also the bottom looks pretty neat I think. This is printed with a raft, that is obviously already removed here.

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/OK_straight.jpg[/img]

To check how warped it really is I took an aluminium ruler, and that clearly shows how flat the bottom is.
And this is the sandpad I used.

[img]http://hennekens.info/rostock/OK_sandpad.jpg[/img]

Now the next question...
This print took around 5 hours of time. Is that in you opinion a lot? Should I be able to do that quicker without the introduction of extra warp-force? Depended of any comments I will open an new thread about that. For now I am happy with the result, and with this forum! :-)
I am DeltaCon, I have a delta, my name is Con, I am definitely PRO delta! ;-)
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Xenocrates »

Mine usually took around the same amount of time. I can't wait to see the finished enclosure. And I'm jealous of your vinyl cutter too. I've been trying to use a paint pen on my edges.

If you want to increase strength and reduce layer visibility, for ABS parts an acetone fog is a good step. It will make it shinier though. That could be fixed with a can of finish, which will also make your brackets acetone resistant in the future, so you will not have so much in the way of issues should you get ABS juice or ABS on it, and can just wipe them down with acetone to clean them. Looking good though.
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Eaglezsoar »

Your print looks good now and the painters pad was a great idea!
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Re: Dunno what to call this thread... Problems anyway!

Post by Captain Starfish »

Bravo, well done.

Must feel good to get to the end of that and see a nice print job.
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