Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by geneb »

I'll admit I get overly cranky sometimes. :D

I've been accused of many things, but "wise" has never been one of them. *laughs*

The RTV isn't supplied because they can't find a supplier that can provide tiny tubes of it. Sending a huge tube of RTV when the builder will use less than an ounce isn't practical.

Kapton tape doesn't have any backing, so it's not practical to send short lengths of it. The manufacturers of the stuff aren't interested in selling tiny rolls unless you're buying thousands of units (probably 10k+) at a time.

The RAMBo box includes locking pin connectors that aren't used, so you'd really only need to buy the male version of the connector and its pins if you want to build it out like I do.

I DO think that SeeMeCNC should include the crimp tubes - they may be doing so, but I don't know. (Guanu?)

The heater cartridge is a nice upgrade, but would add a whole pile of cost to the kit. You figure the two resistors might run 25 cents for the pair. A 40W heater is going to add $2-$5 depending on the source. Now granted, it doesn't sound like much, but all those little "extra" costs add up quick. Now that being said, I WOULD like to see the stock hot end ship with a threaded thermistor. Unfortunately that would add about $10-$13 to the cost of the kit if they sell them at cost. If they assemble them by hand, it could add a similar cost.

The stock hot end works very well for the filaments it was designed to print with. I wouldn't wish an E3D on a new user - they'll try it with PLA and end up banging their head against a wall. PLA does NOT like all-metal hot ends. Yes, there are a number of people that have gotten PLA to work well with the E3D, but from other discussions I've seen, that's the exception and not the rule. Now I'm not saying the E3D is a bad hot end - it's most certainly not. What it IS however, is an upgrade that should be purchased to fill a specific need, not just because it looks cool. It's especially suited to printing high-temp filament like trimmer line nylon.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Eaglezsoar »

A very good writeup, Gene.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by geneb »

Thanks. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once an a while. :D

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Mac The Knife »

geneb wrote:I'll admit I get overly cranky sometimes. :D

I've been accused of many things, but "wise" has never been one of them. *laughs*


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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by geneb »

More than once. :D

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Audin »

I've had a Max v2 for 3 months now. It is my first 3d printer and I'm overall quite happy with it. I chose it over the other options due to its ability to use ABS, speed, size, and large volume. Also I was quite enamoured with delta printers when I first noticed them. Many years ago I built an MDF CNC router, so I was already familiar with gcode and stepper drivers. Having this "extensive" 3 month experience now, I think a V3 printer would benefit from:

* A faster controller. At higher print speeds it feels like the AVR is having problems keeping up. I have significant stuttering problems particularly with Cura's higher resolution gcode due to this. Also the repetier firmware is annoyingly buggy in places.
* A better control board mounting method. I can't count the number of times I have pinched wires while trying to get the rambo back into its spring-fit mounting.
* A better rambo fan. Mine failed due to bad bearings within 2 months. Noise from this fan is very commonly mentioned. I replaced it with a random $7 fan from amazon which moves more air and is essentially silent.
* Re-work the emergency stop button. I was quite shocked and annoyed the first time I tried to use this only to find that it doesn't actually work. While not actually dangerous it is certainly surprising and could result in mechanical damage.
* It would be nice if the rambo were mounted such that the LEDs could be labeled somehow. Light-pipes to the front panel would be really sweet, but presumably would add significantly to the cost.
* An optional Connector Pack which included parts for a totally connectorized build would be nice. Something to avoid having to cut and splice the extruder wires would also be nice.
* A faster bed. I started with the rev3 bed which had real problems. It was graciously replaced by SeeMeCNC with a rev2 which does work better (my experience with SeeMeCNC's support has been top notch), but it still takes 20-30 minutes to reach an indicated 90C. I think two more revisions of the bed have come out since, so this has probably already improved some.
* A better power supply, or get the current one to run better. Loading the 5v side of the supply with a big resistor has significantly improved my bed heating times. Perhaps this should be stock? Also, an ATX connector would be much nicer than the current cut and bundle technique.
* Something to keep the arm rods from walking out of position would be nice.
* Make the cheapskates symmetrical. Unless there is an actual structural or geometric reason for the current design I cannot emphasize how annoying this is during assembly. Maybe laser the word 'INSIDE' on the inside faces if they have to stay the current shape?
* The instructions should encourage the printing of the spool holder (http://repables.com/r/204/), and the filament funnel (http://repables.com/r/289/), both of which help keep the filament flowing smoothly and quietly, which also seems to help improve quality.
* Something should happen to make pulley alignment and belt tightening easier.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Renha »

Some more holes in top plates:
- for adding more filament spool holders (up to 3 because of geometry, ideally 4 for Kraken)
- in the center of top top plate for placing a bottle or container for water cooling
Maybe turn top top plate into ring instead of disc, it will hold what it holds, and look cool I think. Easy dealing with wires, water tubes, etc. as a bonus
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Eaglezsoar »

Perhaps I should create a printer that has everyone's requests or suggestions.
I would have to charge $2000 for it so that I can make a profit and probably sell exactly zero of them.
And if someone did buy it they would have a whole list of requests or suggestions for improvements.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Renha »

If you sell zero of them, you wouldn't have any profit. And some of suggestions here costs exactly zero of dollars
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Eaglezsoar »

Renha wrote:If you sell zero of them, you wouldn't have any profit. And some of suggestions here costs exactly zero of dollars

Some of your suggestions would cost zero dollars, I agree.
Some of the other suggestions would cost money and force a price increase beyond the critical 1000 dollar mark.
My point is not to quit making suggestions but the ones that will cost money will most likely not be implemented.
If people actually knew how small a profit is made on these 1000 dollar printers they would be shocked. Most of
the suggestions are good ones and can be done as upgrades.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by brent »

geneb wrote:Kapton tape doesn't have any backing, so it's not practical to send short lengths of it. The manufacturers of the stuff aren't interested in selling tiny rolls unless you're buying thousands of units (probably 10k+) at a time.

Not entirely true. E3D's hotends come with a small amount of kapton tape on wax paper (sandwich paper) for holding the thermistor to the hotend.

geneb wrote:The heater cartridge is a nice upgrade, but would add a whole pile of cost to the kit.

Agreed. Cartridge heaters are a bit dangerous compared to resistor-based hotends (re: thejollygrimreaper's video on melting a full hotend using cart. heaters with failed mosfet)

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by teoman »

The hotend could be pre tapped upon request to make cartridgebetc installations easier.
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by teoman »

I do agree that price is important. And the price was what initially got me interested in the rostock max. However had there been some options, I would have happily clicked them and bought a 1500 usd kit.


The reason why i am so verbal on this is, for the busy man who does not live in the USA, dicking around searching from supplies is a real burden. I have a 99 percent complete repreap but searching for the odd screw and wire and bit and bob got me fed up. It was too time consuming so i had the intention of buying the exact same printer in kit configuration so i would not have to run around. This is what i had in mind:
http://www.dx.com/p/heacent-3dp02-3d-pr ... AEtC0ixuVI

When i came accross the Rostock max and said why not.
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by teoman »

The screws on the spool holder could be countersunk.

The little protrusion of the bolt interferes with one of my spools while it is turning there.
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Rob-E »

i"m always trying to reinvent the wheel, so i'm gona go ahead and spitball a few of my notions. which for the most part shouldn't significantly add to the current cost of the kit and may even save a few bucks or at the least give you a few more bullet points on the features list.

- Indicator LED wired onto the hot end nothing fancy just a indication that its getting juice
(Your fingers will be safer than ever!)

With the retirement of the toast slices and the old arm assembly theres a bit more space to play with on the laser cut sheets Assuming of coarse they don't overhaul the v2 frame completely, but assuming that they don't maybe they could offer us some parts to grow into? i don't know what it cost to run the laser cutters but besides that nothing i'm suggesting bellow adds more to the material cost than that ( odd nuts and bolts outstanding).

- a few more holes in the PSU mounting bracket for routing some bigger cables like one nickle sized one on either side would probbably be plenty, you could make that into the hot end spacer piece if you wanted
then you'd even have a spare (incase you happened to say drop yours down a air vent . >-> didn't get that back btw)
- re purpose toast slice space on laser cut sheet to make a bracket for a 2nd extruder
- redesign and relocate current spool holder, just giving it arms that reach off to either side would give you room to hold a 2nd spool and if you moved it in line with the Z tower you'd be set if you upgraded to a 2nd extruder which if my prior suggestion was also implemented you'd only need to buy the motor and extruder/ hotend but you'd already have matching frame material.


(Designed with Expansion in mind!)

The hot end
Now theres nothing wrong with the one that ships with the kit, its perfectly serviceable but with so many of the community adopting J heads it seems apparent that it does not meet everyones needs / expectations
i'm not suggesting changing it out but what i am suggesting is making the transition easier and the end result more uniform looking:

-adding the Laser cut Jhead adapter parts into the kit, i'm looking at the rev4 Sheet 1 of the laser cut files( my program won't open Rv5) and provided i'm not horribly off on the scale it looks like theres room for it right in the center cutout of the smart controller faceplat/bracket


I'm sure i could think of a few more little things that would put some more polishing touches on this already great kit things but its almost 4am so i'm gona call it a night, i'll see how these suggestions are taken before i throw a few more out there.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by KAS »

X/Y/Z markings on the top of each plate. Only relevant if the v3 is a kit with similar looking plates.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Jimustanguitar »

Funny that this thread surfaced again... V3 has been officially rumored! New things like the injection molded carriages and the ball-joint arms are already here, and other upgrades are also being schemed about.

I'm sure that Andy and JJ would appreciate a list of fresh suggestions.

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Rob-E »

Jimustanguitar wrote:Funny that this thread surfaced again... V3 has been officially rumored! New things like the injection molded carriages and the ball-joint arms are already here, and other upgrades are also being schemed about.

I'm sure that Andy and JJ would appreciate a list of fresh suggestions.


Its rumor is what brought me to this thread :D

also as another notion to my list above perhaps designing and including a 2nd hot end bracket that can hold 2 seemecnc hot ends? i know the new effectors have a plastic mount but there's just some free space on the laser cut sheets to start with and now that the toast slices and effector plates arn't being cut out of it there's so much more!

And i know it was suggested before but a wider selection of melamine colors probaby merits rementioning, set up a poll to see what colors would be popular, i'm sure the end consumer wouldn't mind paying a few dollars difference to get it in the color they want without the hassle of painting it themselves

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Tincho85 »

It's not really necessary, but if given the option I would pay extra for a Rostock Max with metric bolts/nuts.
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by gchristopher »

I'm in an area of the US where metric bolts, especially small M3's, are difficult to acquire. And shipping from McMaster Carr is sadly exorbitant in cost.

Um, V3 thoughts:

When I first put together the Rostock V2, generally I was overwhelmed by how much thought was put into everything and how nicely it went together. I think the only part that didn't impress was the spool holder. It's literally a square peg in a round hole and the filament spool immediately began grinding off melamine from the corners of the holder shaft. A piece of PVC tube held with zip ties might win out there, and I bet SeeMeCNC could do better.

A friend just bought a Rostock kit, and I noticed that the bed thermistor wires are smaller now; that's great. It should be a little easier to thread them through the base plate.

The only other thing I often say when I (frequently) recommend the Rostock kit to others is to call SeeMeCNC and ask whether they can order part of a kit without the electronics or power supply. When I'm talking to someone with a lot of engineering background, that's usually the first question: is there anything you'd change? Two things I say immediately are a better power supply for ABS printing bed temps and 14ga wires to the bed. The other one is a longer conversation about electronics options for people who might want something that supports an expansion board or be running at a faster speed for better delta calculations. (Next up is a PEI print surface, but I always tell people to work through glue sticks and other coatings first so they really appreciate when they no longer have to.)

I think the standard answer is to email SeeMeCNC and ask to buy a subset of a kit?

It might be worthwhile to put some thought into making the kit a little more modular to buy and upgrade? 3d printer electronics, especially, are a pretty rapidly changing field, so maybe think about making that bracket as friendly to a range of form factors as possible?

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by teoman »

There are rumors that they will be going with a beaglebone black type of controller. But probably not for the v3.
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Rob-E »

A frame only kit (melamine and hardware, bearings belts carriages arms ect) would be a nice consideration for those who already have existing electronics from other printers, say someone upgrading from a reprap who already has a pile of motors and electronics on hand.

or even a A-la-carte ordering menu in the parts section would probably be a handy addition, although i guess it complicates their end a bit.

wouldn't mind seeing what the guys could come up with for a autobed leveling probe

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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by jjjohnson »

Jimustanguitar wrote:Funny that this thread surfaced again... V3 has been officially rumored! New things like the injection molded carriages and the ball-joint arms are already here, and other upgrades are also being schemed about.

I'm sure that Andy and JJ would appreciate a list of fresh suggestions.


It is definitely nice to see the thread come up again. Please know that it is noticed and reviewed regularly. With that said, keep on posting!
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by Xenocrates »

I'd like to suggest larger extrusions, which I realize will increase cost and involve a good amount of re-design, but something like 80/20's 1020 would be beautiful, although with the issue of belt routing. 1030's would solve belt routing, and allow a heated chamber to be fairly easily mounted on 2 T-nuts supporting a bracket cantilevered off the extrusion. Also, moving the towers outwards from the bed slightly, say 2, 3 more inches, would increase the printable radius and further simplify heated chamber design, because all you would have to clear would be the cheapskates, as the head would very rarely reach the area where it would hit the walls at that point. (I don't think it even could, so long as you kept it on the bed). Unfortunately, both of these involve a good amount of physical redesign, and involve making one or more injection molding dies obsolete, as either the cheapskates would need redesign, and much larger outer shells, or the arm length would need to change. It would likely also change the effector size if the desired arm geometry is a parallelogram (I'm not sure if a trapezoidal system would work, and also assuming that you increase the spacing between arms), although that wouldn't necessarily be bad, as it would make it simpler to support dual extrusions, triple extrusion, or quad extrusion. Unfortunately, it would make a large number of modifications to the effector platform either incompatible, or would necessitate an adapter. (which would likely fit in the melamine space that is left as scrap in the top panel cutout for the spool holder, thus not greatly increasing cost beyond the extra laser time.)

Another wishlist thing is heat spreaders included in the kit, or as optional extras like the matter-control touch. Same thing with extruder heatsinks (or design for more venting on the lower ones and a heatsink on the upper one stock), allen key/connectors in the kit, and so on.

Broken down by system/category below

Hotend:
Spoiler:
Also, either ditch thermistors, or go with a screw-in, or E3D style design. I personally would prefer to ditch them for PT100s, although that would be difficult for the heated bed. But the bed is an acceptable place for a thermistor, as it's static. on the hotend seems to be asking for trouble. Perhaps try to find a source for small amounts of thermal epoxy (for heatsink as well as for emplacing the bed thermistor, rather than the RTV.) It would also require either repetier 92.4 and additional work like a new electronics daughter board, or a board which supports RTD sensors out of the box without the other circuitry. I have a good amount of hope for the V3 to also have quick-change connectors and such on the hotend, as there was a mention of a circuit board mount on the effector. I'd love it if seemeCNC also made those circuit boards available as a spare, so that multiple hotends could all have that board, similar to what the yellowjacket seems to do. Threaded spaces are also something I really, really want, so we can ditch the long bolts. Hopefully with a set of flats or such on on them, but that's somewhat difficult to do without milling them on something like a 4 axis rig. Ceramic heaters also a plus. Also, the larger effector as a consequence of larger extrusions might actually be a major plus, as it would let dual and triple, even quad extruders be mounted more easily above the platform.


Mechanics:
Spoiler:
As mentioned above, changing the extrusions for larger sturdier ones and moving them. The larger extrusions would also allow cantilevered brackets to add some form of support for the carriages or hotend, be it some form of sprung system or even counterweights running in the open space inside the tower, allowing people to more easily deal with very large hotends or extruders mounted on the arms. It also opens up space for wiring in the towers, and will likely increase the base size.
Belt tensioning is also a big one. Figuring out the correct spring constant, or even adapting some of the existing designs for 1 bolt tensioning per tower would be awesome. I'd love it if we could assemble it and never touch the belt tension again. But only having to use one bolt would be nice as well.


Electronics:
Spoiler:
A better board than the current rambo, with a controller that is actually modern and medium powerful. Delta support is obviously a must, and preferably a mostly surprise free friction-less setup would be nice. Something like the BBB, with a preset Angstrom image would be nice, especially if 626 does actually port his calibration system. Heatsinks for the extruder at least, and the rest of the steppers please.


Extruder:
Spoiler:
A slightly redesigned ez-struder, with a stiffer spring, or less moving distance,as well as support for flexibles standard would be beautiful and also backwards compatible. It would also potentially be nice to have the bowden tube extend all the way through with a notch in it, so as to make feeding the filament somewhat easier, as well as making it possible to have end to end climate control for really challenging filaments and enviroments, such as printing PVA on a houseboat (I don't know anyone who's tried, but I assume the humidity would be really annoying)


Wiring Harness:
Spoiler:
Perhaps a 24V power supply in the box, with either step down transformers, or electronics designed to run at 24Vs so as to decrease bed heat time. It would be really lovely. And as for the rest of the wiring harness, I'd like connectors at the top deck, or a terminal block, so that changes can be made more easily. Please, more mesh tube for cables! It's not needed, but it makes things look so much better. Also for consideration, connectors that go to ATX standard connectors and output what the electronics need without having to chop up a power supply. Reduces the risk of someone doing something daft, although it still requires some knowledge of crimping, or else you'd need someone at seemeCNC building these little wiring harnesses. Also, a rat-tail to a USB pass through keystone to connect the controller board would increase cost and piece of mind, as it would eliminate the possibility of someone ripping a jack off the rambo (or it's successor) by forgetting to disconnect a computer, as well as looking slicker than just having another cable trailing out of the machine.


Heated bed:
Spoiler:
PEI sheet+ adhesive in the box would also be great. I realize it probably won't happen, but I figure I might as well toss my 2¢ in, like with most of these ideas. Heat spreader as mentioned above, either in the both or as an available add-on.


Heated chamber:
Spoiler:
A heated chamber would be great, but is unlikely. There are also a multitude of methods for adding a chamber, and the likely need for an additional temperature controller is a large malus to the idea of including one. Changing the extrusions to 1030s would greatly simplify mounting, as you could use the extra 2 channels to bolt brackets to, as mentioned above


Aesthetics:
Spoiler:
I'd love to see more colors of melamine, but having looked into it, I'm slightly amazed we even get black. Melamine pretty much comes in white. I have found exactly one place that stocks 1/4 2 sided black melamine in my area, and that still requires going to a different state. I doubt seemeCNC does enough volume to make it practical to have additional colors of melamine at all, while still being too high a volume for them to paint the melamine. I believe Henry Ford said it best. You can have any color you want, so long as it's black (or white).


Metric/tools in box:
Spoiler:
To address the metric idea, While it would be lovely, the massive increase in needed part variations leads quickly to the conclusion that a metric only variant would be highly impractical. That being said, if the V3 was designed from the start for metric, it would work. But that would make it harder for large areas of the US to assemble. And the US seems like it makes up the larger volume of customers. (seemeCNC would have to say one way or another). Perhaps doing as Ikea does and including the Allen keys, or having them as an option would be wise. Or perhaps make (or source) bits for them that would fit in the seemeCNC screwdriver, and start packing those in instead. (they are awesome looking by the way, next time I have a reason to order from you guys I'm getting one).
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Re: Rostock Max V3 - requests, suggestions, etc.

Post by 626Pilot »

Make the frame 100% self-aligning.
My favorite thing about the MAX METAL is that the frame is self-aligning. My least favorite thing about the Rostock MAX 1 was aligning the frame. You will cut your support requests for "why doesn't it print flat" if you make the new frame SELF-ALIGNING. Constrain the towers on all sides, including top and bottom. Don't make people screw around with a yardstick to make them all the same height.

DON'T make an offset Z-probe.
They are OK on Cartesian printers, but on deltas they're a waste of time for ANYTHING other than figuring out the Z height. There is no point in making a probe that only does that, but not calibration. I experimented with this while I was developing my heuristic calibration Smoothie fork. If it was probing the bed depth from the coordinates you thought it was, it wouldn't need to be calibrated in the first place. You will not get the best possible results, or anywhere close, using an offset probe on a Delta. It would be better to design a hot end-based probe where one side of the mount is on a swivel and the other is held down by springs, and when the hot end touches the glass, the springed half moves up and trips an endstop switch. Or use FSRs, if you want that whole can of worms.

Replace DOZENS AND DOZENS of melamine parts with 3 segments of T-slot.
Another great thing about the MAX METAL is that the part count is tiny compared to a Rostock MAX. On a regular MAX, there is so much fiddly stuff you have to do just to get the base put together structurally that could be COMPLETELY skipped if you used T-slot for the structure instead. Melamine/acrylic could still be used to do the fascia and make it pretty, but the basic structure should be 100% T-slot. You could also think about doing an aluminum panel, like the BerryBot. No one is going to tell me that panel doesn't look cool.

Consider a cable mast.
It's a great way of getting wires to the hot end, and it looks cool.
Cable mast.jpg

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