Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to support?

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Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to support?

Post by 626Pilot »

EDIT: I have been in touch with Arthur Wolf. The situation has been resolved to my satisfaction.




I spent a lot of time, on and off over the last year, developing a heuristic calibration extension to Smoothieware that can be used to calibrate linear delta (Rostock-style) robots. If I billed commercial rates, the work would easily be over $10K. I released it for free because I take pride in my work, and get a kick out of seeing other people benefit from it. However, recent events have convinced me that it's time to start looking for a new board to port my work to.

As detailed in this thread, I bought two Smoothieboard 5XCs, and one of them arrived with two capacitors improperly soldered. One fell off the board on its own, and the other was so poorly soldered that it peeled off with almost no effort. The other capacitors were all solidly connected, so I know this isn't just an issue with a flimsy component. I like the community and the firmware, but firmware is nothing without hardware to run it on, and in my opinion their hardware platform is a joke - a really bad one, played at the user's expense. They know that their hardware manufacturing process is broken. They know that their quality control process is broken, and that as a result, they're shipping out boards with parts literally hanging off them.

To make matters worse, Uberclock, their US distributor, has ignored two emails I sent about this issue over the last month. I now have to go to my credit card issuer, and file a dispute to get my money back. The defective board is a slap in the face, and the lack of support from Uberclock is also a slap in the face. I am so disappointed in whoever is doing the hardware manufacturing, and Uberclock? I straight up don't like that company. I didn't do all this work, FOR FREE, just to be treated like crap - and if this is how they treat a contributor like me, why would a regular end user want to have anything to do with them? They have dropped the ball here, and they're watching it bounce away while they still take money for these damned things.

I'm also not a big fan of the old cell phone processor they use. It has 64K, but it's segmented into three areas (32+16+16). That required me to spend several days migrating memory from one bus to another. On top of that, they're already feeling the pinch - only a few K are free under normal operating conditions. If you have an LCD panel, you have to turn it off to run the calibration section of my firmware. That's not a good user experience. They are working on a new platform with an Intel Edison chip that will have exponentially more RAM - but who's gonna manufacture it? The same people that ship boards with capacitors falling off? :lol: Thanks, I'll pass.

I can't go back to Arduino-based controllers. Marlin and Repetier have too much spaghetti (which the Arduino IDE actively encourages), and getting my code to run in 4K of RAM (much of which is already taken) would be very annoying for me. I don't want to spend my time on that.

What's the new hotness in 3D printer/CNC controllers? I want something with decent RAM - at least 64K (in one memory segment, not three) - and at least a "sorta fast" CPU. Smoothie runs at 100-120MHz, which is adequate. (Arduinos are 16MHz - not enough.) More speed is always nice, but 100MHz is enough.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by stonewater »

I have seen somewhere people ar using either the intel Edison or the galileo to drive a printer.... don't ask me where I saw it 'cause I do not remember....


aah here it is:

http://3dprint.com/87657/mostfun-pro-intel-3d-printer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by 626Pilot »

I will look into that.

I would really like to know what people on this forum are using now, or would like to use, so I don't spend all my effort porting to a platform that has no wind in its sails.

Would really like to see something with 7 stepper drivers at a minimum. I have a Diamond hot end, and I'd like to use it!
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by JFettig »

Ramps-fd?
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by Jimustanguitar »

If I had to pick a smoothie killer, it would probably be a CRAMPS board on a BeagleBone. Check that out as well as the BBP.

I haven't looked at how they spec aside from their processing speed, but those would be on my list if I were in your shoes.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by geneb »

There's two things I don't like about the CRAMPS - finding one to buy is damn near impossible. I found one vendor, but they couldn't be bothered to put a photo of the board up in their store! The second issue is the Pololu drivers - The last thing I want to do is dink around with tiny little pots that I have to adjust based on a lot of hand waving and magic. Digipots are NOT that hard to use. :(

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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by teoman »

I am also leaning towards a board that is Beagle bone based.

It just seems that it has the umph and it is more versatile. I have no doubt that the setup will have more cursing involved than the arduino boards.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by JFettig »

geneb wrote:There's two things I don't like about the CRAMPS - finding one to buy is damn near impossible. I found one vendor, but they couldn't be bothered to put a photo of the board up in their store! The second issue is the Pololu drivers - The last thing I want to do is dink around with tiny little pots that I have to adjust based on a lot of hand waving and magic. Digipots are NOT that hard to use. :(

g.

http://pico-systems.com/osc2.5/catalog/ ... ucts_id=35" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Got mine from there, no issues with it.

it takes like 2 seconds to set the current in each driver... not sure why this is an issue. Do it once and you're done with it.

Dealing with the forever beta Machinekit is another story....
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by geneb »

Yeah, I figured out that their main page image was broken, but clicking on it got you a pic of the board.

Isn't there a requirement to use a meter,etc. in order to adjust those pots?

g.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by ZakRabbit »

I keep coming back to the Beaglebone, but I can't seem to find anything current as far as projects/users talking about them. I'm super newb to this, so maybe I'm looking in all the wrong places.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by mhackney »

I have one of the Duet boards and displays ready to install on a Kossel 250 that I'm just wrapping up the mechanical build on. The firmware for the Duet was done by Adrian Bowyer and team and is very nicely done. The issue with any/all of these alternatives is they just don't have the same market momentum that Arduino based controllers have. I was so frustrated with BB Black I gave up on it. All of these alternatives are not as easy to source, similar to the Smoothieboard in that respect.

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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by bubbasnow »

i got a laser head and volcano running with bbb on a delta, linuxcnc/machinekit work, but im sure there is always room for improvement.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by JFettig »

geneb wrote:Yeah, I figured out that their main page image was broken, but clicking on it got you a pic of the board.

Isn't there a requirement to use a meter,etc. in order to adjust those pots?

g.

https://youtu.be/89BHS9hfSUk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Right on the resources page.
https://www.pololu.com/product/2133" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by geneb »

Ugh. :)

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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by bot »

It's actually really easy to adjust the pots with or without a meter. I did so when I was a super noob with a homebuilt rostock and ramps. They are REALLY sensitive, but you just bump bump bump until it's as close as you can get it to where you want. I literally just tap the screwdriver when it's at a slight angle to nudge it along.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by geneb »

I think I'm just going to stick with the RAMBo board, backstopped by the "Rollie-brator" host-based calibration software. :)

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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by IMBoring25 »

mhackney wrote:I have one of the Duet boards and displays ready to install on a Kossel 250 that I'm just wrapping up the mechanical build on. The firmware for the Duet was done by Adrian Bowyer and team and is very nicely done. The issue with any/all of these alternatives is they just don't have the same market momentum that Arduino based controllers have. I was so frustrated with BB Black I gave up on it. All of these alternatives are not as easy to source, similar to the Smoothieboard in that respect.
I'm running a Duet on my Mendel and like it pretty well so far. Due to an injudicious moment while troubleshooting a thermistor calibration, I just had an "opportunity" to pick up the new v0.8.5, which has dual-extruder capability out-of-the-box and turns the DueX4 expansion board into a path for 6x extruder capability.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by Generic Default »

I'm a little bit hesitant about the smoothies also. I have four now, one for Rostock Max, one for sherline lathe, one for taig 4 axis mill, and one for my newest big delta.
The newest one came without a microSD card, and I got no response when I emailed them about it.

It's too bad that the electronics that control 3d printers are in short supply. I just want something with decent speed and a TON of inputs and outputs for all the printer devices.
I think there is a lack of options because electronic control boards like these are the most difficult part of a 3d printer to make. It takes a ton of time and money to develop them, and very few people have the skills compared to making other parts of the printers.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by bvandiepenbos »

IF the smoothie electronics board was manufactured to high standards and with quality components, would it still be a good/viable option? ...If so then seems to me like a opportunity for someone to just go ahead a build a batch themselves and sell them.?
The board is open hardware, right? so it would be pretty straight forward I would think.

Since Uberclock is dropping the ball, then somebody should pick it up.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

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bvandiepenbos wrote:IF the smoothie electronics board was manufactured to high standards and with quality components, would it still be a good/viable option? ...If so then seems to me like a opportunity for someone to just go ahead a build a batch themselves and sell them.?
The board is open hardware, right? so it would be pretty straight forward I would think.

Since Uberclock is dropping the ball, then somebody should pick it up.
The firmware itself is good, for the most part. I would like a processor with more RAM in a flat memory space. Speed could be the same 100-120MHz.

Porting to a new platform would be rather time-consuming. They have a fork in development for the Smoothieboard 2, which will run on the Edison platform. However, it's still in its infancy and doesn't have any motion control yet. Since the board is coming out who-knows-when, there's no viable firmware, and it's probably going to be made and sold by the same people who burned every ounce of goodwill I ever had for them, I see no reason to wait for that. It's a shame. I really like the codebase a lot - it's very easy to work on. The other 3DP firmwares I've seen are all spaghetti in comparison. Community support on their IRC channel is also really good. They just don't have the hardware and sales side nailed down. Frankly, I think they should get out of that altogether, since it's going so badly. I'd love it if they would port to a platform that already exists, and has good manufacturing and sales. Why re-invent the wheel?

It looks like MachineKit and LinuxCNC will run on the BeagleBone Black. There are a number of "capes" that a BBB will plug into, and they break out into stepper drivers (or at least sockets for them, like Probotix's cape). A BeagleBone is only about sixty bucks, runs at 1GHz, has 512MB RAM, two PRUs (programmable controllers - good for running real-time motion control code), 4GB flash built in, 3D accelerator, floating-point unit, and micro-HDMI out. This, I can get with. Computational resources feel more like 2002 than 1985, and I don't have to find a way to shave INDIVIDUAL BYTES off of my memory usage to shoehorn it into the available RAM.

I also looked for Raspberry Pi-based solutions, but I only found one engineering student's project to run a 3D printer from one using a hand-etched board. That doesn't seem to be ready for prime time. The rest of the "Raspberry Pi 3D printers" are just using the Pi to run OctoPrint, with some other controller doing the actual work.

JFettig and anyone else - what is it like to use this CRAMPS board? I don't understand the decision to use micropots instead of digipots, but if everything else is square I can deal with it.

mhackney - what problems did you have with the BBB that lead you to choose a different controller?

mhackney and IMBoring25 - What do you like, and dislike, about the Duet?

GeneB - I sent an email to UltiMachine asking whether they are working on a RAMBo successor. I mentioned you to them.

PS: If my credit card issuer doesn't refund what I paid for one of the two boards, I'm going to ask Shopify to close Uberclock's store. On the first page of this thread, someone else is already saying they got ripped off for a microSD card from this merchant. How many others are out there who got burned? I'll be happy to organize people from these forums and elsewhere to contact Shopify at the same time. If they see enough evidence, they may act.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by bubbasnow »

uberclock is in Gold Hill, OR... dont we have any locals who want to do a drive by to see whats up?
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by IMBoring25 »

The Mendel came with Melzis and the Rostock came with a RamBo, so the extra processing power of the 32-bit microcontroller is new to me. The Duet/DueX4 combination also seems more reliable than the master/slave Melzi arrangement.

It's probably common with the 32-bit controllers, but the Ethernet and web interface are nice. I do wish the web client had "dry run" functionality to provide a time estimate before launching the print.

Firmware configured by gcode stored on a MicroSD card makes reconfiguring the machine fast when changing configuration and also provides the theoretical capability to do advanced tool change algorithms.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by mhackney »

mhackney - what problems did you have with the BBB that lead you to choose a different controller?
It was a pain in the @ss to setup and configure. The documentation is scattered as it comes from multiple open source projects that are not integrated/talking to each other. Even simple things was time consuming and painful. Frankly, I think the firmware sucked as compared to smoothieware. Smoothie firmware, as you know, is not half bad and pretty easy to develop for. I also didn't like having to source the hardware components from multiple vendors (the BB itself and the cape and other bits). The thing is big compared to other boards too. To me it feels like linux weenies trying to make more linux stuff. I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily, it just is.
mhackney and IMBoring25 - What do you like, and dislike, about the Duet?
Like: firmware is even nicer than smoothie in my opinion. It has very sophisticated delta calibration already, the best and most reliable around in my opinion (and others'). It was dead simple to setup up and get working. The display is fantastic, much more like a little PC than a simple LCD display. The hardware appears to be reliable and build quality is excellent. Dislike: it's not available in the US. Still a relatively small following of users compared to other stuff. As you probably know, the delta kinematics in Duet are very different than all the others, it calculates the steps precisely by solving the motion equations in near real time and does not do segmentation to approximate delta motion like smoothie, repetier, marlin and machinekit. It makes a noticeable/visible difference on the prints.


At the end of the day, the firmware dictates the hardware in my opinion. Reliable, modern, delta-tuned firmware is critical. Then comes the hardware to run it on. Of course this is a simplification, you need both. The issue in the market right now is that the 2 most common firmwares - by a huge margin (repetier and marlin) are really not supported on non-arduino, modern/powerful controllers. The guys building the newer controllers or capes/cards/shields like the BB, Smoothie, Duet all are dependent on firmware development. Smoothie has the lead above the other non-arduilno boards in that respect and has been gaining momentum. This latest lack of support and product quality issues could easily disrupt that. The Duet has an ever increasing following in the UK and Europe. There really is nothing the Duet firmware needs in my opinion so it is basically just enhancements and minor new features.

Lots of good Duet info here by David Crocker - he implemented the delta firmware and calibration:
https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com/201 ... -hardware/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

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bubbasnow wrote:uberclock is in Gold Hill, OR... dont we have any locals who want to do a drive by to see whats up?
A drive-by? :lol: I'm not THAT mad!
IMBoring25 wrote: Firmware configured by gcode stored on a MicroSD card makes reconfiguring the machine fast when changing configuration and also provides the theoretical capability to do advanced tool change algorithms.
Gcode-based config is nice, and one of the things I like about Smoothie.
mhackney wrote:
mhackney - what problems did you have with the BBB that lead you to choose a different controller?
It was a pain in the @ss to setup and configure. The documentation is scattered as it comes from multiple open source projects that are not integrated/talking to each other. Even simple things was time consuming and painful. Frankly, I think the firmware sucked as compared to smoothieware. Smoothie firmware, as you know, is not half bad and pretty easy to develop for. I also didn't like having to source the hardware components from multiple vendors (the BB itself and the cape and other bits). The thing is big compared to other boards too. To me it feels like linux weenies trying to make more linux stuff. I don't mean that in a bad way necessarily, it just is.
Once you figured all that junk out, were there any ongoing problems that made it hard to keep using the BBB?
mhackney wrote:
mhackney and IMBoring25 - What do you like, and dislike, about the Duet?
Like: firmware is even nicer than smoothie in my opinion. It has very sophisticated delta calibration already, the best and most reliable around in my opinion (and others'). It was dead simple to setup up and get working. The display is fantastic, much more like a little PC than a simple LCD display. The hardware appears to be reliable and build quality is excellent.
How does their calibration routine work? Is it the regular "probe bed and run depths through a few rules", or is it more like my machine-learning algorithm? Do they have depth-mapping Z correction to take out whatever Z error isn't corrected by the calibration routine?
mhackney wrote:Dislike: it's not available in the US. Still a relatively small following of users compared to other stuff. As you probably know, the delta kinematics in Duet are very different than all the others, it calculates the steps precisely by solving the motion equations in near real time and does not do segmentation to approximate delta motion like smoothie, repetier, marlin and machinekit. It makes a noticeable/visible difference on the prints.
I took a cursory look at the firmware. It doesn't look to be as "finely detailed" and organized as Smoothie - most files in one directory, no clean separation of modules, etc. However, I can deal with those things if everything else is OK. I got 0.9-degree steppers for my new MAX Metal build, and I would like to get some extra smoothness, so the non-segmented calculations seem like a nice idea. Does "not available in the US" mean you can't get it at all, or just that you have to pay extra to have it shipped from the UK or wherever? Any supply chain issues you know of?
mhackney wrote:At the end of the day, the firmware dictates the hardware in my opinion. Reliable, modern, delta-tuned firmware is critical. Then comes the hardware to run it on. Of course this is a simplification, you need both. The issue in the market right now is that the 2 most common firmwares - by a huge margin (repetier and marlin) are really not supported on non-arduino, modern/powerful controllers. The guys building the newer controllers or capes/cards/shields like the BB, Smoothie, Duet all are dependent on firmware development. Smoothie has the lead above the other non-arduilno boards in that respect and has been gaining momentum. This latest lack of support and product quality issues could easily disrupt that. The Duet has an ever increasing following in the UK and Europe. There really is nothing the Duet firmware needs in my opinion so it is basically just enhancements and minor new features.

Lots of good Duet info here by David Crocker - he implemented the delta firmware and calibration:
https://miscsolutions.wordpress.com/201 ... -hardware/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Repetier and Marlin are both developed in the Arduino IDE, which means dealing with a weird, non-standard, non-C++11 (so I can't use closures/lambda functions) "C++-like" language. Repetier is at least working on a Due branch, but both are full of spaghetti because they're constrained by the Arduino "way of doing things".

If Smoothie ran on BBB or the Duet, even if it was like getting a root canal to figure it out, I would immediately take that route. Even if it took two weeks and lots of elevated blood pressure and bad words, I would still at least try. The way the firmware is laid out - I'm repeating myself here, sorry - is just so good. It's professional. The directory structure is deep and well-elaborated, and the code is distributed through that structure in a clean, logical way. It's like if you downloaded the source to Joomla or Mozilla or any other large open source project, and looked around - you would see the same thing. You would see evidence that whoever laid it out is aware of design patterns, just from looking at the directories and files. It was a huge breath of fresh air after reading the Marlin and Repetier source. I also like that Smoothie runs on the bare metal. It has its own kernel, provides its own services, etc. There's never a question that you might upgrade the kernel, like on a BBB, and find some odd behavior. (But that rickety SD card/vfat stack they use... they need to do something with that.)

I hate that I have to walk away from Smoothie. The manufacturing, QC, and after-sale support ALL have problems. I don't want those problems to torpedo this great firmware, but I can't help them with that.

The Duet is probably going to be what I get. I need a minimum of six axes, and it looks like I can have eight for not TOO much money. I was also looking at the PanelDue interface - color, touchscreen, decent graphics - and it does look quite nice. I just dropped $75 on a Viki2, and I think it looks really pimp, but I guess I can move on from it.
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Re: Smoothieboards unreliable - what new controller to suppo

Post by IMBoring25 »

It can be shipped into the US. I've gotten mine from think3dprint3d, with surprisingly good turn times for international shipping.
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