Looking for a 3D Printer

[type]

Hello,

I would like to introduce myself and ask a few questions before I go and jump the gun and purchase something I dont know enough about.
I sure have learned alot over the last few days researching 3D Printers but I would still consider myself an newbie with a ton more to learn. I have a few questions to help me work on that.

1st, the Rostock MAX claims .05mm layer thickness, I have not found a printer outside of a SLA to break .1mm. Does the Rostock really print at .05 or finer like it claims? I would assume that would give the Rostock the best print quality of all the printers out there right now correct?

2nd, I am not a engineer, although I am quite intuitive and have worked in both mechanical and electronical assemble for near a decade, is the assemble task bearable? Is it just a huge time sink?
- I hear alot about parts not fitting, or needed to be sanded down to get them to fit right. Is this true? Will I have to spend hours sanding down parts and have the chance to mess them up?

3rd, Once all the setup is done how is the calibration of the printer? Is this something that will take days to weeks as well? Are there common problems that go wrong at this stage that everyone has to deal with?

4th, After everything is done can I expect my Rostock MAX printer to just work day in and day out? Or should I be devoting alot of time to fix and tweak it over and over? Will I have more time printing things than fixing the printer?

5th, I really like the look of the Onyx heat bed, but after seeing and hearing alot about it being warped and not reaching temp, should I avoid this?

I understand that 3D printing is a huge opensource push right now and we are really the frontiers of this together, but shelling out a grand on a product really is a big deal. I would think that there is some level of quality of expectancy, is this not the case here?

Thanks guys!

P.s anyone have some HD videos of a Rostock MAX printing high quality, or a time lapse / final print to show the overal quality? Im more a quality > speed guy and I seem to only find speed videos out there on the youtubes.

[cambo3d]

[quote="type"]Hello,

I would like to introduce myself and ask a few questions before I go and jump the gun and purchase something I dont know enough about.
I sure have learned alot over the last few days researching 3D Printers but I would still consider myself an newbie with a ton more to learn. I have a few questions to help me work on that.

I asked almost the same question when I initially decided to purchased this machine. Everyone assured me that this machine was great. Well, truth be told it wasn't, but i'm dealing with it. I think I received a lot I bias answers from people that love there rostocks. just my opinion.

1st, the Rostock MAX claims .05mm layer thickness, I have not found a printer outside of a SLA to break .1mm. Does the Rostock really print at .05 or finer like it claims? I would assume that would give the Rostock the best print quality of all the printers out there right now correct?

I'm not sure about this, It may be possible but im not quite there to comment.


2nd, I am not a engineer, although I am quite intuitive and have worked in both mechanical and electronical assemble for near a decade, is the assemble task bearable? Is it just a huge time sink?
- I hear alot about parts not fitting, or needed to be sanded down to get them to fit right. Is this true? Will I have to spend hours sanding down parts and have the chance to mess them up?

The assembly of this machine is time consuming, sanding is required. some laser cut parts dont line up perfectly. It took me two weeks to assemble and i'm still trying to get it calibrated at this point The manual for the mechanical build portion, I thought was lacking a bit. others say different. I've assembled many kit built cnc machines and this one was by far the most difficult. Would have been better if the parts lined up and tweaking wasn't required

3rd, Once all the setup is done how is the calibration of the printer? Is this something that will take days to weeks as well? Are there common problems that go wrong at this stage that everyone has to deal with?

Assuming that your rostock is sqaure and your build platform is flat, calibration seems to go fairly easy, information on calibration in the manual is okay. Forums members readily help with issues.


4th, After everything is done can I expect my Rostock MAX printer to just work day in and day out? Or should I be devoting alot of time to fix and tweak it over and over? Will I have more time printing things than fixing the printer?

After 2 weeks of building i'm still trying to tweak mine to get it to print nicely, im close but not quite there yet.

5th, I really like the look of the Onyx heat bed, but after seeing and hearing alot about it being warped and not reaching temp, should I avoid this?

Onyx does warp, it bows in the middle but having the boro glass on top helps, because the spring clips expand and contract to help hold the glass and keep it flat when it heats up. Onyx reaches temp fairly quickly, i'm using 24v power supply and it reaches 110 in 5 minutes. The stock power supply that comes with the kit wont give you this kind of performance but it will get there eventually.


I understand that 3D printing is a huge opensource push right now and we are really the frontiers of this together, but shelling out a grand on a product really is a big deal. I would think that there is some level of quality of expectancy, is this not the case here?

cnc machines need to have a good base to start from to keep everything square. Problem is sometimes those parts don't always come out as they are supposed to. If the quality of your machine is lacking when you get it, seemecnc guys have been pretty good at sending you replacements for defective parts/missing parts.



This is my honest and straight up opinion from someone that was in your shoes before. With time you can get great prints with this machine. exampe: http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=330 but the time it takes you to get that far takes time and there is a learning curve.

here is my build log, http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=1228 If I could go back in time, i would just purchase a complete already assembled and dialed in machine.
here is where i asked a similar question http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1131

[type]

After I posted this I went into the build log and read your log. At the start you were really excited, that was at the start of this month. It has been a month and to see your feelings now, well it lines up partially to the youtube review. It seems like the Rostock MAX has some good potential and if people have months of time they can pull it out.

To me that seems to be a huge issue when spending a grand on something... IDK maybe this machine is a $3,000 printer and the reason its offered at $1,000 is because you have to sand and form the parts to fit yourself...

Dang! I really wanted to build a kit and loved the Delta robot idea!

[cambo3d]

dont base your opinion on that bad youtube review, that guy never had a build log or asked for help to get his problem solved, Plus when seemecnc offered a refund he decided to keep it?
that review on youtube is completely out of wack.

[type]

He seemed to be rather whiny about it, and made it a big deal. With that being said almost every single one of his points seems to be a problem or issue with the kit. I understand that he maybe blew things out of proportion, but he seemed to have real issues. Out side of the tape giving him blisters and the bearings wearing out after 1 print, I have seen everyone of his issues on this forum.

[mhackney]

@type, as a Rostock MAX owner, and having assembled 2 other printers and helped friends put a couple of others together I can say - this is not a hobby for people who have limited mechanical, electrical and troubleshooting skills. None of these printers are "easy" but by far the Rostock is the best of the bunch in terms of ease of assembly and quality of prints once calibrated. If you want a plug and play solution, no kit is going to do it. Even the commercial assembled printers are cantankerous machines not for the timid!

If you are unable or not willing to invest the time to gain experience in learning the nuances of printer calibration and tweaking to get fantastic prints, this hobby is probably not the right one to get into. That said, if you are able and willing I can assure you, and my build thread and photos of things I printed on this machine demonstrate it, this is one amazing printer once you have it dialed in.

I also want to say, the fellow on YouTube and perhaps a few other complainers made absolutely no attempt to contact SeeMeCNC to resolve the issues. I find that unbelievable, especially, as you said, this is a $1000 investment. Call or email SeeMeCNC if you have an issue, don't post here in the forum (they do not read these posts in detail and it is NOT a customer support forum, it is a user community). By every account, my experience and everyone I know who has asked SeeMeCNC to make things right has been given great service.

Finally, Cartesian printers like the RepRap derivatives, etc have been around for a few years and the software to drive them, although open source, is pretty well shaken out. The delta printer format came on the scene last year, late. As you can imagine, the motion control is completely different. It has taken a little while for the software to stabilize and that is and has happened. And there is (or was) very limited community experience. There are many difference across the board. Even with my 3D printer experience, I was unfamiliar with DELTA_RADIUS and the motion control for a delta. I have closed that gap now and many others have achieved a level of understanding that we can use to help others.

Also keep in mind, this software is Open Source, created by hobbyists like us for the love of creation and sharing with others. Most of it was not designed to interoperate nor was it put through rigorous test and documentation cycles. This is also true for most of the printer hardware out there - it is Open Source, sparsely documented and tested and evolving quickly. That can frustrate the heck out of some people and can inspire others to work through the challenges (which are surprisingly minimal) and enjoy the benefits of creating a cutting edge machine to fabricate things in your own home. It is remarkable, and I have over a decade of experience in traditional CNC mill and lathe experience. You think 3D printers are challenging, go read the posts on the benchtop machines forum on CNCZone! There are no standards, no complete kits, no manuals or documentation.

Sorry if this sounded a bit like a lecture, not my intent! The only thing I would lecture about is: email SeeMeCNC support if you have a problem!

regards,
Michael

[type]

Yeah that makes sense, I would have no problem emailing them if I had "a" problem or two. I just need to know if its normal for everyone to have many problems. I need to find 3 or 4 build logs that go together without a hitch to get me going a little bit.

Im not sure what you mean by "these printers" but from just basic research there are quite a few printers that arrive at your door ready to calibrate and print. SD3 is a very hard choice for me not to pick, 8x8x8 fully built, $200 cheaper and the calibration is minimal. Although like I said the ability to hit .05mm layers and the awesomeness that is the Delta robot config is just sooo tempting. Thus I'm here doing my research.

I really feel that I can learn and overcome challenges so that part does not worry me much. The issue that would really get to me is finding my lazer cut parts not fitting and needing replaces putting me back for days to a week at a time. Getting everything together and finding out that my x pcb or y part didnt work and needing to send it in. I really dont like the whole idea that I need to sand parts down to fit, I guess some pictures would help but I cannot come to understand why parts would be shipped that needed to be sanded down. Are these parts all unique to each and every enviorment?

But yea... still interested still doing my research.

[geneb]

It's physically impossible to wear those bearing covers out after a single print. He'd have to coat the rails with 60 grit sandpaper first.

The guy is simply throwing a hissy fit because he got in over his head and refuses to take responsibility for it. The Rostock MAX kit is _stupidly_ easy to build. The part count is low and it's a very straightforward build. However, understand that any kitted 3D printer is not a consumer device. It's bleeding edge technology that evolves very, very, very rapidly.

There's no "easing into" 3D printing. You either sit on the sidelines and stare wistfully at the goings on, or you close your eyes and jump off the ledge. (Come to the Dark Side! We have cookies!)

That being said, I was as new to this as you are now when I plunked down my $849 for the Indigogo campaign. Anything worth doing is never going to be easy. No matter what 3D printer kit you pick, it's not going to be a walk in the park. Sometimes the learning curve looks more like a vertical cliff face than a curve, but I can absolutely guarantee that once you learn the basics, you'll have an absolute blast!

There isn't any rush on getting a printer - so just kick back and watch how things evolve. Pull the trigger when you're almost comfortable with what you're seeing. I don't know if there are any people offering pre-built/calibrated Rostock MAX machines, but you can buy a nice pre-built machine from the guys at Lulzbot (http://www.lulzbot.com) if you really don't feel up to a kit.

Calibrating a Rostock MAX isn't hard, but it CAN be a bit tedious at times. Once you've got it calibrated, you can pretty much leave it alone.
After finishing my calibration by running an 11 hour print that resulted in the flight grip from a Spitfire MkV. Much cooler than any silly vase. (http://geneb.simpits.org)

g.

[mhackney]

My kit had no mechanical or electrical issues and went together without a hitch. My issues were around the calibration, etc - part of the learning process and as I said, the difference in the delta format.

Not to be prissy about it but I was not familiar with the SD3 print so I googled "SD3 Printer". The VERY FIRST hit I got was to this support issue from last week: http://www.soliforum.com/topic/1782/sd3 ... ng-with-z/

What I meant by "these printers" was the class of hobbyist desktop printers - both kits and preassembled units. As opposed to $30K industrial 3D printers.

A number of us here have built the Rostock without needing to get replaced parts, etc. I have no idea how many have been sold to calculate the % of problems. Most people who have no problems do not post favorable information. I stared my build log to help others but most people do not do that.

Frankly, I don't think the fellow in the YouTube understood that all laser cut - and water jet and plasma for that matter - parts have a slight taper. This is factored into the design of the product. The beam diverges as it penetrates the material, it is a cone not a cylinder. My parts have a slight taper, no doubt. I know about laser cuts and therefore did not spend time sanding parts that don't require sanding. Again, if he called support or even came here and asked, he could have saved himself the trouble.

What do you mean about all these parts being unique to every environment?

[mhackney]

Hey Gene - I JUST got that "cooler than any silly vase" remark! I call foul play!

[img]http://mhackney.zenfolio.com/img/s2/v50 ... 5144-4.jpg[/img]

250mm tall, 178mm round, 14 hours to print. As beautiful a thing as I could imagine printing.

[type]

What an amazing piece.

Now I can understand why you like these printers so, yours went together great! haha And you are right, most people who have them go together well dont post and only those that do have issues post. In my head I think the Delta printer sells at a tenth or so of the SD and other preformed printers so when I see as many opinions as I have it really hits me with it being a higher percentage that have problems.

The sanding that I was talking about was with the bearings I believe?

[mhackney]

I actually had to disassemble my delta arm bearings - see my post "Don't get those Delta Arm Blues" - because I did not appreciate the impact they had on print quality. Again, due to my naiveté with the delta format. On a Cartesian printer, this would not have made a difference. The actual amount of work it took to trim/sand - fit - test - repeat on the 12 joints was not heroic. I know it was less than an hour but don't recall the details. These joints are the heart of the movement for these machines so it makes sense to get them silky smooth.

The YouTube gent actually sanded all of his laser cut pieces too because he thought the taper cut was a problem.

[type]

Well that is good news, only 1hr of sanding on those 12 joints. I still think that a joint or bearing anything should be a machined fit when you are purchasing a thousand dollar kit, but 1hr is not as bad as it could be.

Another general question I have seen brought up is the hot bed not getting hot enough. I know other printers are 95-100+ degree's recommended on their hot beds for ABS, is this not the case with the Rostock MAX? I dont think I have seen anyone get thoes temps. Is it due to the lack of Case? Or just sub par parts?

[JakeCShake]

Yes......the U-joints needs some (well a lot) of sanding but it they were produced too precise, I don't think that would be wise either. By doing the sanding, it's almost like your calibrating the machine to work the best for you. Pre-assembled machines may be great....BUT I believe you totally miss out on what makes these machines tick. Putting the time in and learning about what makes these machines tick is awesome. Not to mention that there is a fantastic community around this machine that is always responding. Top that off with world-class customer support from manufactuer....and I haven't seen anything close. We had no problems with our machine even though it was #6, without a manual and a forum just starting....the videos and community was awesome. It's my brother in laws machine....but I can't wait to get my own.....btw, first timers with no engineering or software backgrounds....and over forty : ) Hope this helps..

[mhackney]

There is a lot of "conventional wisdom" out there on hot bed temps. Many of us print ABS at 85°C with no problems. Many use bed temp to compensate for poor sticking, etc. Once you have it figured out, the heated bed is for warp prevention, not sticking. I have not read the manuals for pre-assembled printers, if you have handy links where they say to print on a bed that high, I would be interested to read them.

Any heated surface as large as the Onyx is either going to take power or time. Its a tradeoff and power costs money. I certainly can get to 120°C on my bed with a dedicated 24V power supply. It takes 7 minutes. As you see more and more large print volume printers like the Rostock come to market you will hear a lot more about heated bed heat up times! It's basic physics. I can easily design a heater that will get to 100°C in 1 minute, it will cost $175. Any product is a tradeoff between cost, quality and features (including documentation and support). The fact that SeeMeCNC started including the Onyx in the basic kit (I think it cost $69 when I bought it) is great. Could they add another $50 24V 16A power supply and keep the price the same? Who knows. Remember, when a company produces a product, an incremental increase in a part cost or addition of a new component/part costs the company a lot more than you think. Consider that $50 power supply. The company would have to purchase several hundred of these up front to get reasonable priced - say $7500 plus $300 shipping. Then there is the storage, handling, support for any defective supply (it's a 3rd party product that is not taken out of the box and individually tested), and of course inventory management. So, that $50 little extra to us costs the company a lot more. Again, I live in this world with my reel making business so I know the drill!

[JakeCShake]

Not to mention that this technology is advancing almost daily. From the time that we got our machine (Dec...??) to now, there have been many changes and advancements. If you want to wait to get a "perfect" machine, you may have to wait a few years. This open source, highly evolving technology is awesome. I wouldn't wait and delve into what I think is a superior product. Will it change, will there be better (magnetic mounts look awesome)??? I don't know...but if you want to be in the mix, this place rocks....!!!

[type]

Yes......the U-joints needs some (well a lot) of sanding but it they were produced too precise, I don't think that would be wise either. By doing the sanding, it's almost like your calibrating the machine to work the best for you. Pre-assembled machines may be great....BUT I believe you totally miss out on what makes these machines tick. Putting the time in and learning about what makes these machines tick is awesome. Not to mention that there is a fantastic community around this machine that is always responding. Top that off with world-class customer support from manufactuer....and I haven't seen anything close. We had no problems with our machine even though it was #6, without a manual and a forum just starting....the videos and community was awesome. It's my brother in laws machine....but I can't wait to get my own.....btw, first timers with no engineering or software backgrounds....and over forty : ) Hope this helps..

Thanks for the input.

I see alot of people that really like to get in there and make things their own and I guess sanding fits the bill for you guys. Although now I have realized its not as big of a issues as I thought, I would never sell a part that was produced with the intent that someone else would have to sand it to fit. Maybe Im wrong but I still cannot understand how this joint could not have been made to fit the other part that it mates with unless every single one was unique.... The only thing I can think of was something changed and the mold wasnt updated or it was just wrong and never correct, but again Im speaking with out ever seeing the part.

And yeah I have not really read a single manual for anything, although Im sure there is value in reading manuals It has never been my style. There are some hundreds of printers (http://www.3ders.org/pricecompare/3dprinters/) and I do not have the time to read each and every manual (if they even have them). Instead I do what 95% of the rest of consumers do, youtube and google.

So mhackney can you comment on the .05mm layers? Are you there yet?

[JakeCShake]

The only thing I can compare these machines to is a race car. You need to work with what you have and modify them for the best results. If you want a standard car, that's fine. If you want to take the time, examine the results, and modify everything to perfection....that's what happening with 3 D printing is all about. Nothing is perfect, not even pre- assembled. But if you know the machine and have unlimited feedback...you can make it work, like a race car. If not, buy a companies's machine and deal with their limitation. Cutting edge......all I'm saying....(beside magnet joints..hehe)...

[geneb]

mhackney: One's for holding flowers, one's for one of the most famous fighter aircraft of WWII. Your call. *ducks, runs*

type, I printed a selector knob at .09 using PLA on Tuesday. I think that's about the limit with my .5mm nozzle. I think I'd have to go to a .35 to even try a .05mm layer height.

IMO, the only realistic reason you'd need to print at 50 microns is if your model had a feature that required that kind of layer height. Remember that a 3D printer is essentially a rapid prototyping machine. At best, it's a VERY low rate production machine.

With regard to the requirement of sanding the arms... Well all I can say is that they've probably forgotten more about injection molding parts than most people know and they likely had very good reasons for doing it the way they did. It may have something to do with the composition of the material being glass filled nylon, but I'm not sure.

JakeCShake: I can only hope they produce a refit kit that uses those mag joints. It was impossible for me to retain _any_ dignity while squealing like a little girl when I saw those effector end joints.


g.

[type]

Yeah the mag joints are crazy cool!

I disagree about the 50microns. It's so worth it, it looks better than a lesser resolution. Rapid prototyping is only a small area that 3D printers are used for. I want to print the lower of an AR, I would like the best looking part I can get. Also small production runs used for marketing and props. Again I want the best resolution. Parts around the house etc etc.

I will really be looking into getting a .35 hot end.

And even tho you all know it, wow you sound like Fan boys. "They have forgotten more than most people know". Common, people are paying them a grand, that's not a worthy excuse. Stop making excuses for a laxed part design.

[JakeCShake]

Which makes me think this is the you-tuber...again....

[easybeans]

Stop feeding the troll. They're never full.

[type]

Oh wow seriously. You guys cannot take the truth about this platform can you?

I'm not the youtube reviewer lol.

[PartDaddy]

hi type,

I designed this printer. I cut the molds, walked across my shop, put the mold in the press, made the parts. While they ended up with more interference than I designed, I did intend for a tight fit of the carriage mounts, arms, and platform. The reason the u-joints must fit precisely is because a sloppy fit will effect this type of machine precision and print quality. The thermoplastic is glass filled nylon 6. And it does sand pretty easy. I may begin CNC machining the plastic parts in the future to help speed assembly.

Build time varies by the skill of the maker. I've seen builds as quick as two days, and, well... If you do follow geneb's manual, it should take about 3 or 4 days. If you go off on your own, well, your on your own... (two weeks +). At the Midwest Reprap Festival, I lead 15 builds. It was the first time we held a workshop to build the Rostock MAX. We started Friday evening. A team of two guys finished by Saturday evening. By Sunday evening, about 7 or 8 more powered up. And Monday I invited everyone else to our shop. Out of the six people who came Monday, three were printing by Noon. And the last three were printing by evening. I learned how skill level various. The last to finish have never done anything remotely like this, yet completed working machines in 3 days. If we were not there to help, the low skill level would have taken over a week even following the manual. The skilled would have taken 3 days.

And no, I still haven't heard anything from my youtube reviewer Matt. The offer of help still stands... While it's discouraging to see a poor video review, I'll still help him get going. Just email us what you broke or messed up and we'll ship you new parts. I stand behind what I manufacture.

Let's get this 50 micron thing under control... Yes, 10 micron is the smallest theoretical z step. 200 step/rev stepper motor * 1/16 micro stepping from Rambo = 3200 steps/rev. We were using 15 tooth 2mm pitch timing pulley's. That's 30mm/rev at the GT2-2mm pitch pulleys we machined. 30mm/rev divided by 3200 steps/rev is 0.009375mm / step.

Now don't wet yourself just because we just calculated 10 micron steps (.010mm theoretical accuracy). You will be hard pressed to see this in the final print because we are talking about plastic here. I just printed 50 micron (.05mm layer height) part and could only tell a little difference between it and 100 micron.

support @ seemecnc dotcom for questions, help, parts... post a crappy youtube video... well... we'll still offer to help you: it's a WIN-WIN for SeeMeCNC customers

[type]

What a great response from the designer, that is really appreciated. Just a heads up, I did try and contact you guys before I ever posted on the forums at (https://shop.seemecnc.com/contactus.sc). I filled out the form with my information and all my questions, Im not sure where that goes to but maybe you should add your support email there.

I really want to say first that you did a great job designing the overall unit as far as looks go, that is why Im here you made a great looking unique printer. I also want to say +1 to you for just owning up that your parts are not hitting your design mark and are coming out short of what they should be. That is the best answer you can give as its the truth, and following it up with how you "may" (or should) fix it in the future is CNC'ing the part to fit precisely.

I know all about precision required assembly, I built my Eclipse Turbo GSX to 400awhp and when you have a turbine spinning in excess of 100k RPMs and a full rotating assemble spinning in excess of 9k RPMs anything but 100% precision could be a deadly accident waiting to happen.

As to assembly, I dont mind if it takes 2 weeks. If it did take two weeks to assemble I would actually be thrilled, that sounds like alot of fun. The only issue with 2 week assembly time is if it is dictated by problems, then that is just down right frustrating and can be a huge hassle. So I think I am easing up off of this as a precursor to me purchasing this kit. Its actually starting to sound like a bit of fun!

As for 50microns I think it is very noticeable. Here is a picture of 3 Yoda's and I do not know each resolution I believe the middle is 100micron and the right one is 50microns. This leads me to believe the left yoda is 150-200 ish. http://forum.seemecnc.com/download/file ... &mode=view . The right one just came out fantastic! Im not sure if I have ever seen a better 3D printed object using an FDM printer. I believe mhackney is also printing a 50micron bunny that is looking great too! So outside of the cool Delta platform I am here because of the claims (and now proof) that this printer can hit 50microns and it looks great!