Getting more oomph out of the motors

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Unknown Target
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Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

Hey everyone,

I'm running a stock Artemis 300 with a 1mm nozzle and a .8mm layer height. Unfortunately after extensive testing the fastest I can get the machine to go is 25mm/sec + .5-.6 extrusion multiplier with consistent results. The moment I try to move the speed up past 30 I start getting severe extruder skipping.

At first I thought it was due to heat and the multiplier being too high, but the PLA is limited to a max of 220, so I can't push it past that (I've tried and the results are ugly and unacceptable) and dropping the multiplier any lower and I start to get under extrusion.

This slow speed almost negates the benefit of the larger nozzle and to be honest I've never been able to get the machine up to the 50-60mm a second advertised because of this skipping issue. I was wondering if there were any mods that would boost the grip and power of the extruder so it could push the filament through at the volume required?

Thanks!
Jordan

Edit: also should note that in an effort to reduce friction I reseated the Bowden and replaced the nozzle with a single extrusion type instead of the y adapter connector. No luck there.

Some of the best success I had was reducing the cooling fan speed but that doesn't seem like it should have helped that much.
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by geneb »

The extruder skips because you're trying to push filament through the hot end faster than the hot end can melt it. You either slow down your print speed, or turn up the heat. Do some test prints where you continually bump up the temp while increasing the print speed. You'll eventually hit a point where you'll get good results at a decent speed.

g.
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

In the first post I went over that a bit; after lots of experimentation I've found that that point is at 25 mm/sec with the max temp at 220 for PLA. I'd like to drive it faster though, as even with a smaller nozzle size I still have yet to reliably get to 50-60 mm/sec. What is the max current rating for the extruder motors? Thinking that if I get enough torque it can overcome the resistance in the nozzle as I am able to hand drive a large volume of filament through.

One of the reasons I bought this printer is for speed and I still have yet to exceed my Makergear M2's print speeds, that's why I'd like to see about increasing the motor torque.
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Mac The Knife »

Your limitation is the hotend, An E3D volcano is what would really make a difference for you.
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by geneb »

In order to keep the hot end at a temperature that can melt the PLA at the required flow rate for the speed you're printing at, you need to go higher than 220C. The larger diameter nozzle is increasing the flow volume and the hot end at a lower temperature can't keep up. The PLA moving through the hot end isn't going to experience the higher temperature long enough to become an issue.

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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

That doesn't jive with my empirical experience. Moving the temp up to 230 only nets maybe 5mm/sec extra travel speed but the PLA is overheated and begins to bubble when deposited. :(

Is it not possible to increase the current on the motors to push the filament through with more torque?
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Mac The Knife »

The other issue I see is the bowden tube. your other printer has the filament drive on the hotend itself, where as the Artemis is remote. No matter what you do to the bowden tube, the more force you put on the filament is going to increase the friction between the tube and filament itself. You have to increase the temperature, or increase the melt zone in the hotend. I wonder if you could install an E3D Volcano heatblock on the SeeMeCNC hotend?
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Mac The Knife »

And yeah, you can increase the current, But the gain most likely would be negligible, and most likely burn up the extruder motor. How warm is it getting now?
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

Extruder motor is fine at the moment. I'm wondering, why can't I use the Jet nozzle on PLA? Because if I take out the TPU I can increase the overall temperature. I'd also like to get to the cooling fan that's on the heatbreak and reduce the RPM on that to increase the melt zone height, any tips?
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Mac The Knife »

Who said you can't run the Jet Nozzle? it may not be recommended because of the potential for clogging, but if you're pushing the pla through the hotend fast enough, it shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by geneb »

There's no TPU inside the stock SE300 hot end. I don't think the Jet is available.

I just re-read your post. I thought you were using a 0.6 nozzle, not a 1mm nozzle. You will NEVER print fast with a 1mm nozzle on the tiny heater block that the SE300 has. The incoming PLA is going to cool the filament path at a rate that the heater simply can't keep up with due to the low "mass" that the stock heater block has. The Volcano works because once it's at temperature, there's so much heat stored in that huge block that the PLA (or whatever) can't cool it faster than the heater can put heat back into the system. The melt zone on the Volcano is like three or four times the size of a standard hot end as well.

I don't know if the Volcano heater block will fit the SE300 - you might ping tech support.
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

Mac The Knife wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:28 am Who said you can't run the Jet Nozzle? it may not be recommended because of the potential for clogging, but if you're pushing the pla through the hotend fast enough, it shouldn't be a problem.
https://www.seemecnc.com/products/hi-te ... 80-hot-end

"NOT FOR USE WITH PLA" lol
geneb wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:31 am There's no TPU inside the stock SE300 hot end. I don't think the Jet is available.

I just re-read your post. I thought you were using a 0.6 nozzle, not a 1mm nozzle. You will NEVER print fast with a 1mm nozzle on the tiny heater block that the SE300 has. The incoming PLA is going to cool the filament path at a rate that the heater simply can't keep up with due to the low "mass" that the stock heater block has. The Volcano works because once it's at temperature, there's so much heat stored in that huge block that the PLA (or whatever) can't cool it faster than the heater can put heat back into the system. The melt zone on the Volcano is like three or four times the size of a standard hot end as well.

I don't know if the Volcano heater block will fit the SE300 - you might ping tech support.
g.
Hey, you're right, I meant PTFE, not TPU, my bad. The Jet is indeed available for the extruder though. :)

I'll take a look at the Volcano, thank you!
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

According to E3D their Volcano uses an M6 thread to attach the heater cartridge to the heat break. I'm concerned that 1) the heat break won't stand up to the higher temp/volume flow, 2) the SE300 can't handle the 30W heater and whatever type the thermistor is and 3) I will require some sort of firmware change.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
https://e3d-online.com/products/volcano-upgrade-kit
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Mac The Knife »

For normal printing, It may not be recommended to use the jet nozzle. You want to run a high volume of filament through your hotend, so I don't see a problem with it. I would instead try to install a volcano heatblock to the se300 and be done.

However. If you are after faster print speeds to increase production, you would probably be better off buying more printers.
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by geneb »

The heat break in the SE300 is made from stainless steel, so it should be fine. I'm pretty sure the thermistor used in the Volcano is the same one used in the SE300.

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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

Ordered the e3d hotend but accidentally got the 24 volt version. That being said all the dimensions match up so I'm going to try using the heater block with the existing cartridge heater and thermistor on the se300. Will post updates. :)

Out of curiosity why is the jet nozzle not recommended for use with PLA?
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by geneb »

I think it's because PLA can leak around it. I'm not sure. I've never used the jet insert.

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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Mac The Knife »

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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

Ahh I see you also watch CNC Kitchen. ;)

I got the Volcano in and it was super easy. Unfortunately I tore the thermistor cable on the SE300 so I'm waiting for a replacement before I can use it. Will post a tutorial once I get it all installed! :)
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by geneb »

\o/
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

Well the new thermistor came in and the good news and bad news;

Bad News: With just the Volcano the melt zone is still too small for extreme speeds, I couldn't get much more over 30 mm/s, though this was with a smaller .8mm nozzle.

Good news: I also installed the jet mod with a modified PTFE liner. With that I was able to get PLA to print at 70 mm/s. Will post new the tutorial soon, where should I put it so it gets found by future readers? This thread or somewhere else?
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Re: Getting more oomph out of the motors

Post by Unknown Target »

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