Trick Laser MAX METAL Build

Viking · Post by **Viking** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:32 am

I'm also working on a MAX Metall build, this thread have been very useful to find out how I will build it. After a lot of reading I have desided to turn the frame upside down, to get all the steppers at the top end. The reason is cable logistics, far fewer cables to route inside the vertigal members.

I have to come up with a usefull design for a feet adapter that stil allows for to use the belt tensioners .

Renha · Post by **Renha** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:07 am

So many upside-downers.. maybe it is good idea to make some redesign of maxmetal frame kit to make it easier?
Brian?

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:19 am

Mounting the steppers up top - if you place the controller up top too - you have a long run for the heated bed and thermistor (heavy cabling too) down to the bottom. That to me is a primary consideration as this heavy wire is harder to conceal and you should keep the length as short as possible.

JFettig · Post by **JFettig** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:51 pm

mhackney wrote:Mounting the steppers up top - if you place the controller up top too - you have a long run for the heated bed and thermistor (heavy cabling too) down to the bottom. That to me is a primary consideration as this heavy wire is harder to conceal and you should keep the length as short as possible.

The way I took care of this issue is put the power supply and SSR in the base. only tiny wires going thru the frame members other than the power wires for the top end.

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:33 pm

That works!

Post by **Eaglezsoar** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:34 pm

JFettig wrote:
mhackney wrote:Mounting the steppers up top - if you place the controller up top too - you have a long run for the heated bed and thermistor (heavy cabling too) down to the bottom. That to me is a primary consideration as this heavy wire is harder to conceal and you should keep the length as short as possible.
The way I took care of this issue is put the power supply and SSR in the base. only tiny wires going thru the frame members other than the power wires for the top end.

That is an excellent idea, one that should be put to use on a lot of future builds. I personally like the motors on top and your solution is a very good one.
Thanks!

Viking · Post by **Viking** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:39 pm

JFettig wrote:
mhackney wrote:Mounting the steppers up top - if you place the controller up top too - you have a long run for the heated bed and thermistor (heavy cabling too) down to the bottom. That to me is a primary consideration as this heavy wire is harder to conceal and you should keep the length as short as possible.
The way I took care of this issue is put the power supply and SSR in the base. only tiny wires going thru the frame members other than the power wires for the top end.

This is the way I have routed the wireing.

DerStig · Post by **DerStig** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:18 pm

If you use a Duet controller you only need to run 4 cables to the LCD touch screen so that's a total of 11 cables. Power, Ground, SSR Control (x2) FSR Controller and LCD Controller cables....

Hrrmmmm who's got a good printable lower foot/tensioner?

Viking · Post by **Viking** » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:56 pm

I plan to do the following:

1. place the duet and due panel on top
2. I'm using a dauderdruckerplatte that weighing in at + 1kg. so I think FSR is out off the question, so I go for David Crockers IR probe

So I end up with power cables to motors, controller etc up in to legs, and 4 cables for SSR and temp reading from the bed in the third leg.

Fishbyte · Post by **Fishbyte** » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:02 pm

mhackney wrote:Two problems solved in the same day!!! I got stalled last year on my MetalMax with linear rail build. The rails I bought were too long (and wide) to fit the Metal Max frame properly. These are the SpeedDemon SGR-10 rails (and are really nice, I'm looking forward to seeing them work). They have two hardened steel rods encased in the aluminum frame. You can see the problem in my earlier post in Dec last year. The linear rail is just a bit wider than the width of the 80/20 towers so they interfere. I thought I was going to have to cut the length to fit between the upper and lower horizontals on the Metal Max frame and that got in the way of other priorities last year. Then this morning I woke up and had an easier, less risky and better solution! I simply filed the edges at an angle to clear the base cross pieces:

FullSizeRender 21.jpg

FullSizeRender 20.jpg
Took all of 10 minutes and no risk of ruining the hardened rods. I painted the bevel with a black Sharpie.

The other problem I had was figuring out how to mount these. The holes and counterbores are for M3 cap screws and I have to mount in 80/20 extrusions that have a 6mm wide slot. PIA. But, miraculously, google turned up a hit this today! An eBay merchant is offering these t-nuts designed for 80/20 and M3 screws! They look great and will make the job much easier so I ordered 50.

So when they come in later this week, I can finally make some progress on the Metal Max!

Michael, If you don't mind, I have a couple questions for you on your build. What length are the SpeedDemon SGR-10 rails are you using?, sorry I have not put my MetalMax frame together yet. Also you seem to love the Duet controller and I am curious as to the benefit of having your steppers being .9 degree, which is great but then the Duet only support 1/16 microstepping. Do you see this as a limitation to the precision the stepper could achieve with higher microstepping? Forgive if I am being naive on this, I just want to hear yours and anyone else view on the importance of high microstepping with the smaller degree steppers......Thanks for your input. I really want to mimic your build as I am very impressed with it.

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:12 pm

Fishbyte, I have a MetalMax build thread in this forum and I literally just posted that information this morning.

Keep in mind that high micro stepping does not equate to greater precision. Micro stepping is NOT precise. .9° steppers are more precise the 1.8° steppers on whole steps (400 steps/rev vs 200 steps/rev). When you micro step, the posting is "somewhere between" the whole steps but not exact. So the .9 steppers will be more precise at the same # of total steps. They will also have greater holding torque as torque goes down with each increase in micro stepping.

bob64 · Post by **bob64** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:42 am

I've been considering building a max metal as well... However in my mind I have no idea how to mount the heated bed. The snowflake in my current rostock max v2 has completely warped along with the top layer of the base. Anyone have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening and how to mount it without using the warped parts from my current rostock max v2?

Aflac · Post by **Aflac** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:58 am

bob64 wrote:I've been considering building a max metal as well... However in my mind I have no idea how to mount the heated bed. The snowflake in my current rostock max v2 has completely warped along with the top layer of the base. Anyone have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening and how to mount it without using the warped parts from my current rostock max v2?

ccavanaugh wrote:I'm been picking at a few improvements.

I've added a new heated bed insulator bracket (version 3) to the Git Repo. This version allows use of an unmodified snow flake and moves the mounting to the corners of the frame. It will accept a 4-40 nut underneath so the original screws may be used.

I pushed the spacing out to use the original holes and to make support of FSR brackets easier as I think more distance between loads improves the sensitivity of the FSR input.

I think mhackney's FSR mounts will now work with this, but it's untested at this time.

Open to suggestions...

Heated Bed Insulator v3.PNG

Bottom Side.PNG

I just installed my bed using these parts from ccavanaugh, They are working great for me so far. I also had a friend with a cnc router cut me a new snowflake out of phenolic

Edit: ok I guess his pictures did not make it in the quote, but it's on page 16

ccavanaugh · Post by **ccavanaugh** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:37 am

Aflac wrote:
bob64 wrote:I've been considering building a max metal as well... However in my mind I have no idea how to mount the heated bed. The snowflake in my current rostock max v2 has completely warped along with the top layer of the base. Anyone have any ideas on how to prevent this from happening and how to mount it without using the warped parts from my current rostock max v2?
ccavanaugh wrote:I'm been picking at a few improvements.

I've added a new heated bed insulator bracket (version 3) to the Git Repo. This version allows use of an unmodified snow flake and moves the mounting to the corners of the frame. It will accept a 4-40 nut underneath so the original screws may be used.

I pushed the spacing out to use the original holes and to make support of FSR brackets easier as I think more distance between loads improves the sensitivity of the FSR input.

I think mhackney's FSR mounts will now work with this, but it's untested at this time.

Open to suggestions...

Heated Bed Insulator v3.PNG

Bottom Side.PNG
I just installed my bed using these parts from ccavanaugh, They are working great for me so far. I also had a friend with a cnc router cut me a new snowflake out of phenolic

Edit: ok I guess his pictures did not make it in the quote, but it's on page 16

Thanks! Did you use the latest FSR versions that don't overconstrain or did you use the solid mounts?

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:51 am

I'm working on a bed mounting system with a new FSR "just right" constraints in aluminum for rigidity. Since I'm using linear rails, the mounts will go midway between the stretchers - similar to the way I do it on my Mini Kossel and Kossel 250s.

Aflac · Post by **Aflac** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 11:33 am

bob64 wrote:

Thanks! Did you use the latest FSR versions that don't overconstrain or did you use the solid mounts?

I did the solid ones but had them milled in aluminum, polished them and put some gun oil on to make sure I get smooth movement

ccavanaugh · Post by **ccavanaugh** » Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:09 pm

Aflac wrote:
bob64 wrote:

Thanks! Did you use the latest FSR versions that don't overconstrain or did you use the solid mounts?
I did the solid ones but had them milled in aluminum, polished them and put some gun oil on to make sure I get smooth movement

Wow... those should look slick.

forrie · Post by **forrie** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:11 am

ccavanaugh wrote:Updated FSR specific mounts have been uploaded to the git repo. There were some height related issues that slipped in.

Everything appears to line up well. I will wire and test in a few days.

IMG_20160312_164521104.jpg

IMG_20160312_164444981.jpg

What model MW power supply is that?

ccavanaugh · Post by **ccavanaugh** » Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:40 am

forrie wrote:
ccavanaugh wrote:Updated FSR specific mounts have been uploaded to the git repo. There were some height related issues that slipped in.

Everything appears to line up well. I will wire and test in a few days.

IMG_20160312_164521104.jpg

IMG_20160312_164444981.jpg
What model MW power supply is that?

Good eye!

It's a LRS-350-12. Super quiet relative to the clone I currently have, and much slimmer than what most people have been using.

Comparing against the older thicker model, specs are almost identical, but rated MTB was higher for an extra $0.75 in cost. For the cost of a soda, it was well worth it. I'm assuming it's their next generation model.

forrie · Post by **forrie** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:42 am

ccavanaugh wrote: Good eye!

It's a LRS-350-12. Super quiet relative to the clone I currently have, and much slimmer than what most people have been using.

Comparing against the older thicker model, specs are almost identical, but rated MTB was higher for an extra $0.75 in cost. For the cost of a soda, it was well worth it. I'm assuming it's their next generation model.

The slim form factor and how well it fits the frame caught my eye.

You find that 350W is enough to power everything OK? What are the heat up times like on the bed?

ccavanaugh · Post by **ccavanaugh** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:15 am

forrie wrote:
ccavanaugh wrote: Good eye!

It's a LRS-350-12. Super quiet relative to the clone I currently have, and much slimmer than what most people have been using.

Comparing against the older thicker model, specs are almost identical, but rated MTB was higher for an extra $0.75 in cost. For the cost of a soda, it was well worth it. I'm assuming it's their next generation model.
The slim form factor and how well it fits the frame caught my eye.

You find that 350W is enough to power everything OK? What are the heat up times like on the bed?

Heat time is about 10 minutes with PEI and a TrickLaser heat spreader using a rev 7 heated bed. It's faster than using the old ATX power supply solution. Once the bed is heated, the cooling fan on the PSU becomes almost silent which to me is a good sign it's not overworked. That is at 80C bed temp with 16C ambient temp. Irregardless of heat time, I still let it soak at temp for about 10 minutes before I print for best results with the PEI surface.

ccavanaugh · Post by **ccavanaugh** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:51 am

A bracket for the JohnSL FSR board is now available in the Git repository. The rear plate has been updated with the mounting holes. If you've already printed the rear plate, some adhesive or PSA will work well to stick the bracket in place to avoid reprint or drilling. The board should snap in place, but a thru hole has been added for a screw if needed.

I'm really liking use of the FSR with the Duet. I will more than likely refit FSR's to my Smoothie based machine also. I'm finding that auto calibration is not needed to correct dimensional issues as the MAX METAL frame is solid and square, but when printing with PETG which is very sensitive to 1st layer height, I was struggling because of slight changes in homed height due to temperature changes in my garage. Using the FSR to find z=0 at the start of a print just makes it simple.

Enjoy!

bob64 · Post by **bob64** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:56 pm

I decided to pull the trigger on my Max metal build.
Question on the t-nuts. Do the ones that came with the rostock max v2 work with the max metal?

Also according to the assembly manual the nuts are supposed to be 1/4-20 threads so uh isn't this the "right" roll-in t-nuts if we wanted to reuse the 1/4-20, 1/2” Stainless Steel Button Head Cap Screws?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371088443083

instead of these mentioned on page 8?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191224017522

ccavanaugh · Post by **ccavanaugh** » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:08 pm

bob64 wrote:I decided to pull the trigger on my Max metal build.
Question on the t-nuts. Do the ones that came with the rostock max v2 work with the max metal?

Also according to the assembly manual the nuts are supposed to be 1/4-20 threads so uh isn't this the "right" roll-in t-nuts if we wanted to reuse the 1/4-20, 1/2” Stainless Steel Button Head Cap Screws?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/371088443083

instead of these mentioned on page 8?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191224017522

Correct. Old 1/4-20 nuts work fine and the 1/4-20 roll-in work quite well. If memory is correct, you want about 25 nuts for the printed parts.

bob64 · Post by **bob64** » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:46 am

I just noticed you mounted your pcb heated with the nylon spacers between the Onyx and the snowflake. I'm a bit curious as to why.

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Trick Laser MAX METAL Build

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