Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

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msdevstep
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Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by msdevstep »

With both fans pointed at the plastic exiting the nozzle (even at 25% speed). The hotend is unable to stay hot and very quickly looses heat. I didn't use any RTV on this rebuild (about my 6th rebuild of this frustrating hotend).

What is a good way to insulate this hotend? I'd still deciding which other hotend I'm going to replace this one with (E3D or J-Head probably), but I imagine it will have "staying hot" issues as well. I've had this printer printing since January and I still am not satisfied with the prints I'm getting. I'm not trying to complain, because I actually really enjoy tinkering with it, but at some point I'd like to actually begin printing things other than just useless junk (although the fan brackets shown in the picture were designed and printed by me :)).

As always, I appreciate all the help I get from this forum.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by geneb »

Wrap the hot end in high-temp silicone tape. It'll insulate it from the air flow. You may also want to dial down the speed on the fans - they don't need to be run at 100%. (I run mine at 15%).

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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by Eaglezsoar »

I like to use a strip insulation that wraps around the hotend and is secured with Kapton.
I get it at McMaster-Carrs at this link: http://www.mcmaster.com/#9379K91
It is 1/2" thick by 1" wide X 12 feet. It is close to $10 + shipping but works well and other
alternatives aren't easy to find.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by barnett »

I ordered some of this insulator from qu-bd on May 10, but it never came. According to the usps tracking info, it got lost in the mail and they are re-sending.

I do have some foil and kapton tape on the top of steve's heater block, but it's clearly not enough. I have tried redoing the PID Autotune with the peek fan on. Currently, it hovers smoothly about 1 degree below the set temp. I just set it a bit higher than I really want it.

I might also mention that when the effector is near the Z tower, the magnets in Xnaron's magnetic arms get close to my peek fan and slow the fan down ... resulting in some fluctuation in the holding temp.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by JohnStack »

After seeing this and a few other posts about fans, then revisiting Michael Hackney's blog post about fans (http://seemecnc.org/wordpress/?p=50), I would like to see a non-maker, @SeeMeCNC response.

Just to memorialize this:

Heat issues happen in these places:
1. Heat creep from the hot end to the plastic insulator above it.
2. Heat creep in the tubing within the hot end/insulator.
3. When printing with PLA, the prints don't cool down quickly enough and slump.


For #1 and #2, people have pointed fans above the hot end.

For #3, people have pointed fans at the print area (using shrouds, etc) immediately below the hot end.

For a general process, most print masters indicate keeping print temps down as much as possible.

Still others have purchased 3rd party hot ends which completely ameliorate the issue or at least partially solve them.


For me personally, I'd like to have a stake driven into the issue and find the #1 absolute best solution.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by geneb »

It's my understanding that printing PLA with a layer fan is a basic requirement. This comes from talking to a lot of really smart folks on #reprap. Fans that cool the thermal break are also commonplace, regardless of the hot end design.

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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by JohnStack »

Thanks @Geneb - so I think it means a change to the product design - where there is a SeeMeCNC endorsed way to cool the peek (and keep the heat up on the end) as well as cool layers.

It would be great to see a shroud for the stock hot end that will do both.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by geneb »

I guess the question I'd have to ask is, why does it have to be SeeMeCNC endorsed?

I'll be covering things like this in the "Tricking out your Rostock MAX" section of the manual. (I'll cover a PEEK fan, a layer fan, a light ring and the TrickLaser ball arm upgrade).

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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by JohnStack »

@Geneb, that's a great question and something I considered before posting. Thanks for asking it.

I have this notion - maybe it's wrong - but I think some things fall above the line and others below. For the sake of argument, let's say that above the line has to do with getting first timers off of the mark, obvious QA issues, and those things that increase the longetivity of SeeMeCNC product.

Everything above and below the line is for modders who want increased accuracy beyond stated product specification, ease of use, experimentation, etc.

With that in mind, consider the Ezstruder. Less than 60 days in the wild, it's already in the product. It helps first timers get off the mark, improves ease of use, and reduces the BOM/build time significantly. Above the line? Sure! I haven't seen anyone else's cold end but I'm sure a few modders tried.

Let's consider the fan stuff. I'm one of the unlucky ones who fried their hot end twice. The first time, not so bad, the second time, badly enough to warp the plastic peek insulator and require an entirely new assembly. I'm not the first. Loads of solutions here to try.

That's great; however, if a fan, kapton tape, and perhaps a high temp silicon band around the base of the hot end reduces heat creep and potentially increases hot end longetivity, then it's above the line. If a fan shroud increases anyone's ability to print other materials (PLA) reliably, then it's another win - not only for SeeMeCNC and the customer.

My rationale for all of this is pretty simple:

If there are features/mods that SeeMeCNC can harvest from the community, SeeMeCNC and other companies who might be watching / making 3rd party parts increase a noob's ability to get early and consistent wins. Early and consistent wins grows the community and shifts the space towards focusing on better product sooner. It also strengthen's SeeMeCNC's ability to innovate and compete.

For me personally, I'm not even the maker than 98% of the community here is. I've learned an incredible amount and want to learn more. Anytime I can get past one issue and on to good printing, I'm a happy camper. Having repeated issues or nagging issues is no fun for anyone. I think it is safe to say that hot ends are a nagging issue.

Conversely, there is nothing to say that even though most everyone may have adopted something, that is not to say it's not a candidate for mods anyway...

Does that make sense?
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by Jimustanguitar »

I've been using this one (thanks jetpad!) , http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:79471 scaled to .8 for my 40mm fan. It works very well, but with the 40mm fan it only helps the side directly towards the fan. Rev 2 would be printing 3 of them and putting one at each point of the triangle.

Here's a layer fan for the old style nozzle (it's longer). http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:43983 I'm working on an update that will fit both styles. Hopefully more on this soon!

This one is a triple fan duct that cools both sides of the extruded material as well as the peek. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:87117


I also experimented with an aquarium pump, but didn't think it was adequate for the speed that the Rostock can print at.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by JohnStack »

Definitely would like to see your finished work!
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by geneb »

You make good points John.

I would really like to hear from everyone that has a Rostock MAX about their experiences with the stock hot end. Not just the people that hang out here, but _every_ person that's assembled their kit and used it. I think that they had the hot end design on the table and it was proven to work with their H1.1 machine, so they ran with it.

I don't think they've got an aversion to selling third party mods, it's just they don't want to sell _printed_ third party mods. One of the most unique features of the machine is that ALL the plastic components are either machined (bearing covers) or injection molded. It takes time to develop good injection mold designs, they're expensive and time consuming to manufacture and they're limited by their available capacity. (Time spent making upgrade parts is time lost making stock parts.) They're a very small company (less than 12 people I think) so they've got to carefully plan resources and keep an eye on every penny that goes through the place.

Now that being said, I'd love to see little upgrade goodies coming from them as well as more participation in the forum here.

I think the Rostock MAX has been in production for something like 8 months now. Considering the rapid pace of development, I'm amazed that there aren't more issues than there already are.

I do agree that the hot end is a problem for some people and it's my understanding that they're working on a new design. I think that if I were to put the stock hot end in a "class", it would be "expert". It can be a finicky beast to make work properly and can frustrate the total newbie. The typical j-head or E3D would fall in the "beginner" class because they've gone through so many design iterations that all the sharp edges have long ago been filed off and there's little left to give a newbie a bad cut. :)

I have a sneaking suspicion that the hot end issues that people experience are directly attributable to the thermistor being used. In both of my hot ends I've replaced the stock thermistor with one of these:
http://www.makerfarm.com/index.php/hot- ... istor.html because I destroyed both of the stock devices I got.
(The first one was destroyed by feeding it 12V when I shorted its leads out against the hot end when I simultaneously shorted out the resistor leads, the second was due to soldering the leads and not crimping them, resulting in a stress failure of the tiny, tiny thermistor lead).

I've had _zero_ issues with the hot end that I couldn't directly attribute to me not knowing what the hell I was doing at the time. I suspect that the thermistors they've been shipping are for whatever reason, wildly out of spec. I haven't yet had the time to test this theory out - I'm going to be doing that soon. What I have noticed is that the MakerFarm thermistor reads within three degrees of what my meter-equipped thermocouple reads. (My read point is at the interface of the brass nozzle and the aluminum it threads into). The only stock thermistor I have is installed in my Onyx heated bed and THAT sucker reads 30 degrees higher than actual, even after a PID tuning cycle. This is why I suspect the stock thermistor.

In the chapter that covers upgrades, I'm going to show how to install a 40W heater cartridge and threaded thermistor into the stock hot end. I may also add a brass slug that fits into the other side of the hot end where the thermistor would go. This would (I think) prevent the hot end from dumping heat so fast as it takes brass much longer to give up its stored heat than it does aluminum.

g.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by barnett »

"Tricking out your Rostock MAX" section of the manual. (I'll cover a PEEK fan, a layer fan, a light ring and the TrickLaser ball arm upgrade).
suggestions for the tricking out your rmax: emergency stop button, additional power supply, mag arms, spool adapters and so on.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by Polygonhell »

FWIW I don't think the issue is the thermistor.

Mine was about as reliable as I would expect with the stock thermistor, there is IMO an issue with the placement of the thermistor in the design, it's a long way from the actual bit your printing with and with an uninsulated AL heater block and a fan blowing there will be a potentially significant thermal gradient that will cause the thermistor to read low.

My bigger issue with the hotend, is the relatively high required extrusion pressure and it's propensity to dribble even with large retracts. I think much of that is a result of the rather long AL section before the peak which I think leads to a long transition zone.

If you haven't yet buy a Jhead and try printing with it, IMO it's night and day.
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by geneb »

Polygonhell: You have a point there. I know that it's working well for me with the exception of the drool. I just assumed some of my derp rubbed off on it and it couldn't help itself. :)


Barnett, I'll start a new thread on what folks want to see as far as "upgrades" to the machine and we'll see what shows up.
I can't do it all myself though - funds are limited. :)

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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by Jimustanguitar »

geneb wrote: I think the Rostock MAX has been in production for something like 8 months now.
My wooden pieces from March said R7 on all of them. 7 revs in 8 months is pretty quick development. Gene, what did your parts say when you got a new set for the rev2 manual?
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by geneb »

Let's just say that Steve isn't as diligent as he should be with his part versioning. :)

All my parts were tagged "R7".

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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by Jimustanguitar »

Also....

Is kapton tape an insulator, or is it just a heat resistant material?
Can it be used to stop radiant heat, or just to adhere a better insulator?
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Re: Best way to insulate Steve's hotend from cooling fans

Post by barnett »

All my parts were tagged "R7".
In my other post, I have a photo where you can see the carriage on my z tower says SEEMECNC R5. Sadly for me, Gene's manual came out after Jake and I had already assembled my rmax. We could have used the valuable info in there.

When the kit came in December of last year, the box was labeled wood kit #6.
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