Micron eme all metal hot end for Rostock

[alexzogh]

Has anyone tried it?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROSTOCK-DELTA-K ... 27dc4fda0e

[img]http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh5 ... a5fabc.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.ebayimg.com/t/ROSTOCK-DELTA-KO ... a/$_57.JPG[/img]


It's expensive..... 2x the traditional hotend. Looks like it would need a custom mount because of the fan shroud

Showed up on a general eBay search for Rostock.

[Eaglezsoar]

No, I have never tried it nor will I ever try it. The world's best all metal hotend presently is the E3D and it is a LOT less expensive than the one you showed on Ebay.
I would never consider changing from the time tested and approved E3D to buy a more expensive hotend that no one has ever heard of.
There are going to be a lot of E3D knockoffs coming out but IMO it would be foolish to change from one who has passed the test that thousands of users put to it - it works.

[Nylocke]

I'm trying 2 Picos out, as well as a Magma all metal, they are a bit more expenseive than the E3D, but only by 10-20. Ill post my findings of all 3 (the Picos are coming in as 1.75 and 3mm, and the Magma is 3mm).

Honestly though, I don't think the person who made that hot end you linked knows much about good hot end design, the thermistor seems to be in a pretty bad spot.

From what my reasoning has told me the Magma seems to have the best placed thermistor (there is a hole drilled right into the nozzle, though I'm not quite sure how it will impact performance), and E3D has the best and worst heater block positioned thermidor holes, the axial spot is pretty bad, but the other 2 places aren't too bad. From my limited knowledge of thermodynamics and thought process through it, the best thermistor placement would be pretty close to where the plastic comes out of the hot end (Magma), or somewhere where the heat has to travel from the heater through the plastic and then to the temp sensor to account for thermal energy loss by melting the plastic (non axial E3D mount). From the looks of things that hot end ignores both of my observations....

Also the actual nozzle has a bit of a legacy SeeMe nozzle design, as it is pretty blunt. From what I understand has been found out with the Merlin Hotend, the sharper pointed nozzle you have, the better priding performance and prints you generally get. Its a bit of a balance though, I think the Merlin has some problems with the nozzle cooling too much and plastic jamming in it. Either that or I'm mixing up someones theory with fact.

[626Pilot]

What everyone else said, plus it ships from Israel. It already takes ages to get one from England! E3Ds can now be bought from a US vendor so I don't see the appeal of this thing.

[int2str]

The biggest problem I see with this one is that the whole thing is a giant heat-sink. With the bottom "nozzle plate" being that big, I think it would be a lot harder bringing everything up to temperature and maintaining it. Bot the E3D and the stock SeeMeCNC hotend have a floating "block" in the bottom that is used for heating that is much smaller and not connected in the back like that.

Really doubt this is a good hotend.

[mhackney]

Good observation int2str, the heating block is attached directly to the large aluminum fan shroud/mount. Heat is going to conduct up that path. I think it would take a lot of power to keep that hot end, well, hot. I'd guess even a simple layer of insulation between the mount and block would help significantly.

As for nozzle design, I machined and tested a series of nozzle s about this time last year for the SeeMe extruder. The "flatter" original SeeMe nozzle held heat well and minimized the melt zone, but I felt they contributed to drag on the part and any little debris could snag a part. That was the primary motivation for doing this test. At the opposite extreme, a very sharp nozzle, and I tried to keep it's overall length to about 2mm, never snagged the part but was difficult to keep hot. The walls down to this nozzle's orfice were on the order of .5mm thick so the mass to surface area was pretty small. The mass is needed to hold heat. The high surface area radiates heat. As soon as I turned on my part cooling fan the thing would start to sputter and eventually plug. Somewhere in between is a good compromise. I think the new SeeMe nozzles look about right but I would eliminate the 3(isn)mm cylinder between the hex and the actual start of the nozzle slope. That straight section does not add any benefit to minimize snagging and increases the melt zone (and I think the melt zone on this hot end is quite large). This is how the E3d nozzle is designed, makes sense to me. Once I have my machine dialed back in, I am going to try this.

Cheers,
Michael

[Flateric]

Funny I have been working on a all metal rostock specific hotend that takes cues from the E3D but rather than stretching the cooling upwards, goes outwards with larger radial cooling fins. The result is about half the height of the E3d, but the same weight overall. I'll upload some pics later today if I can find the little bastard in my mess here.

[foshon]

I'm trying 2 Picos out, as well as a Magma all metal, they are a bit more expenseive than the E3D, but only by 10-20. Ill post my findings of all 3 (the Picos are coming in as 1.75 and 3mm, and the Magma is 3mm).

Honestly though, I don't think the person who made that hot end you linked knows much about good hot end design, the thermistor seems to be in a pretty bad spot.

From what my reasoning has told me the Magma seems to have the best placed thermistor (there is a hole drilled right into the nozzle, though I'm not quite sure how it will impact performance), and E3D has the best and worst heater block positioned thermidor holes, the axial spot is pretty bad, but the other 2 places aren't too bad. From my limited knowledge of thermodynamics and thought process through it, the best thermistor placement would be pretty close to where the plastic comes out of the hot end (Magma), or somewhere where the heat has to travel from the heater through the plastic and then to the temp sensor to account for thermal energy loss by melting the plastic (non axial E3D mount). From the looks of things that hot end ignores both of my observations....

Also the actual nozzle has a bit of a legacy SeeMe nozzle design, as it is pretty blunt. From what I understand has been found out with the Merlin Hotend, the sharper pointed nozzle you have, the better priding performance and prints you generally get. Its a bit of a balance though, I think the Merlin has some problems with the nozzle cooling too much and plastic jamming in it. Either that or I'm mixing up someones theory with fact.

IMHO sell the Magma to someone that doesn't know how bad it is. The tube is slightly oversized. When extruding the filament will swell, on retracts it will cool slightly and most likely jam. It sucked donkey genitals on my MM, I imagine it will be much worse on a bowden set-up. Magma has become my go to word for "piece of sh** that doesn't work".

[Eaglezsoar]

Foshon, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel about the Magma!

[alexzogh]

Lot's of opinions, and a few very good points......

I didn't even notice the thermistor was on the OTHER SIDE of the heating cartridge from the nozzle - what were they thinking? At first, I liked the concept of being able to pull the entire filament path out of the hot end without having to disassemble it. In hindsight, given the price, that probably means a replacement nozzle will cost $50 :>

I looked at the Pico, and it looks like it would have a similar problem, a very large heater block area

[Nylocke]

Lot's of opinions, and a few very good points......

I didn't even notice the thermistor was on the OTHER SIDE of the heating cartridge from the nozzle - what were they thinking? At first, I liked the concept of being able to pull the entire filament path out of the hot end without having to disassemble it. In hindsight, given the price, that probably means a replacement nozzle will cost $50 :>

I looked at the Pico, and it looks like it would have a similar problem, a very large heater block area

I don't think you realize how small the Pico actually is, its just a little longer than a AA battery with nozzle. Its heater "block" is less than 2 cm long.

As for the Magma, I'll try my luck, it seems I get pretty good results from bad hot ends and pretty annoying results with good ones.... (The 3mm E3d i have on my Ultimaker keeps on having issues that put it out for a week or so at a time, suddenly today it decided it will print, oh phsyc it jammed again... literally as I was typing this. I don't know if its this SeeMe Green PLA or what.... I generally got pretty ok results from the SeeMe hot ends I had to use, but I had other issues with them....

[Eaglezsoar]

See what happens when you talk bad about an E3D, it gets even.

[MSURunner]

Hmmm, Pico looks interesting, though I think I would want some active cooling on those fins... Nylocke, what's your UM setup look like right now?

[Nylocke]

I have a Greg/Wades on the back and 2 fans on the E3d, the stock cooling the heat sink, and a 50mm for part cooling with a fan duct.

Electronics wise its a RAMPS in the back with a 40mm fan. PSU is a 12v 5amp laptop style one.

Ive been printing the PLA at 230, I have printed with this material (transparent Green PLA from SeeMeCNC, bought it at the Kansas City Maker Fair this year) before and gotten pretty good results, I've been printing with Cura lately, 70mm/sec, but I did some Slic3r printing before with it at 210C, but it was considerably slower.

The mount for the E3d is printed in white PLA, on the Ultimaker itself. The white required 250C, I think it was white Ultimachine, it worked pretty well, the only troubles I've had is with this green. I examined the PLA a bit and found a few spots with air bubbles nearly 2mm in diameter embedded in the filament. I wouldn't use the plastic, but its the only filament I have other than the Nylon (which I can't keep dry).

I'm installing a heated bed hopefully tomorrow so I can try ABS, but I don't have money to buy any plastic right now.

I'm using a .4mm nozzle.

[Eaglezsoar]

Nice setup you have there Mike.

[Nylocke]

Thanks, I only wish it would work for PLA... or at least this green stuff...

[MSURunner]

Not that you probably want to start down another path in modifications while you are still trying to get the E3D working, but I just bought the bullet on getting the stuff for the crossflow setup, which looks like it would be ideal for printing in both PLA/ABS with a heated bed...http://umforum.ultimaker.com/index.php? ... -approach/... Not to hijack the post in a different direction, but where are you getting the plugs? What are the temps you are seeing registered while attempting to print with it and if you stop it mid print, what temp are the lower fins measuring in at? Also, have you confirmed a couple points in the thermistor table with a thermocouple since switching hotends?

[Nylocke]

I don't have a thermocouple to measure the temps unfortunately. what do you mean by where am I getting the jams? its sitting at a solid 230 on the LCD the whole way through.

[MSURunner]

Where did the material jam at? Lower in the hotend or up where the bowden comes in (Are you getting a good seal between the bowden tube and the internals of the hotend?)?

[Nylocke]

I would assume down in the heater block, the filament gets kinda weird and syrupy if its in there for too long, and it jams really easy.

[Eaglezsoar]

I would assume down in the heater block, the filament gets kinda weird and syrupy if its in there for too long, and it jams really easy.

You'd get weird and syrupy if you were left in there too long also.

[Nylocke]

Probably more like burnt to a crisp . I'm thinking that the PLA is slowly building up in the nozzle until it jams. When I switch over the the nylon after drying it in the oven for a couple hours, it still smells kinda sweet and PLAish, and I think its clearing some PLA out.... I'm guessing this is probably just some bad PLA D:

[Eaglezsoar]

Probably more like burnt to a crisp . I'm thinking that the PLA is slowly building up in the nozzle until it jams. When I switch over the the nylon after drying it in the oven for a couple hours, it still smells kinda sweet and PLAish, and I think its clearing some PLA out.... I'm guessing this is probably just some bad PLA D:

Bad PLA is a possibility. There are so many sources of filament these days it's getting hard to know where to buy from. I guess you just try to find a brand that you've had multiple
successes with and stick to them. Some of the stuff I've purchased had to be made in the hillbilly regions of Tennessee and they mixed in colored dirt as a filler.

[Nylocke]

Wow... well unfortunately the only filament I've had success with is the pricey Ultimachine PLA... at least I've heard its "more expensive"

[Eaglezsoar]

Wow... well unfortunately the only filament I've had success with is the pricey Ultimachine PLA... at least I've heard its "more expensive"

It's probably one of the best filaments there is, it's just that I can't afford it. I usually go to Amazon.com and buy a brand I have heard of but the price is usually half
of Ultimachine. That's probably why I sometimes get the "hillbilly dirt" problem.