Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

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Batteau62
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Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Batteau62 »

http://makezine.com/2014/04/24/stress-t ... 3d-prints/

I just thought this was an interesting article. It made me consider the possibilities of using prints as a "hybrid" mold/part combo. Could be a cool way to play with the engineering characteristics of materials, or even the aesthetic. For example: print a t-glase object with separate "voids" and then fill each with a different color. So many possibilities, so little time... :(
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by carter »

I have been thinking about alternatives for infill. it seems like a waste of time and money to infill with the printer. I don't know the cost of hot glue, but it seems like this is an expensive alternative. I don't understand why the article says to drill holes in a completed print... why not just pause the printer and apply it up to the current layer. this seems sufficient as long as the object doesn't need to be perfectly balanced.

Has anyone experimented with cheap substances for infill? I was thinking of using cement as it is cheap, but I know it has chemical reactions that may produce gas... and the long set time means you'll need to be patient.

other ideas:
sand
sand/glue
if there is a way to insert a pause/home command in gcode - you could add fill up to the pause point and then place a solid surface to print a top on the object.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Batteau62 »

carter wrote:I have been thinking about alternatives for infill. it seems like a waste of time and money to infill with the printer.
Especially for some of the high end-high price filaments :o
I don't know the cost of hot glue, but it seems like this is an expensive alternative.
Not really, but everything is relative. You can get glue sticks in bulk for really cheap, check amazon. I think they chose glue sticks because of compatibility. Most are just some formula of a thermoplastic. Which could work to your advantage if the property of the glue stick enhances whatever characteristic you're looking for in the finished part.
I don't understand why the article says to drill holes in a completed print... why not just pause the printer and apply it up to the current layer. this seems sufficient as long as the object doesn't need to be perfectly balanced.
I would assume for convenience. Probably just as easy to plan an "injection" port in your CAD. I think we've just scratched the surface of what's possible "in process" with our printers. I would be interested to hear if anyone has done some pausing to insert something or whatever? I've thought about it, but haven't actually tried it yet.
Has anyone experimented with cheap substances for infill? I was thinking of using cement as it is cheap, but I know it has chemical reactions that may produce gas... and the long set time means you'll need to be patient.

other ideas:
sand
sand/glue
This article is interesting: http://www.3ders.org/articles/20140226- ... nting.html

if there is a way to insert a pause/home command in gcode - you could add fill up to the pause point and then place a solid surface to print a top on the object.
I'm not a g-code guru but I know this is possible. Check this vid of a delta doing a tool change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW-z6XN-1II
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by carter »

another thing i want to try is printing spaces in objects that pipes or blocks can be placed in during printing to increase strength. maybe this would be best for ABS so that it will shrink a bit to avoid rattling
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by carter »

Experiment with filling PLA object with hot glue as it prints.


I'm doing my first test with hot glue. I don't know anything about gcode, so i looked up how to pause and just found the line in the code between layers and added:
@pause
G28
In retrospect, I think i have the order reversed here. oops

I found that if I restarted the printer from the home position that it would SLOWLY creep down to the print bed. I need to add a command to return it to the approximate print level.

ANYWAY...
My test was badly planned. and the pictures were a last minute decision, so they were planned on the fly. also, I didn't add supports because i figured it would support the top of the structure and I didn't want that.

Is there a way to add supports for small nooks and crannies but not for the overhanging surfaces? In my pictures you can see how my curved ceiling needed more support and I had to pause more often so it wouldn't collapse

Another reason I paused so much was because I didn't trust that it would pause on it's own. I THINK it paused for the first pause command but that may have been a pending command from me sending it twice. as I write I'm waiting for the second pause...


I took pictures every time I added a layer of glue:
In case you're wondering, The print is a collectible card plywood box end. I need about 40 of them and quality isn't so important. I've even saved some of the failed prints for smaller boxes. so I use it to test out new techniques - I highly recommend finding a model like this that fits your own needs.


first layer of glue
[img]http://i.imgur.com/13SdJ1G.jpg[/img]
first layer of glue
[img]http://i.imgur.com/9oXyFGC.jpg[/img]
Second layer
[img]http://i.imgur.com/KOeXTZC.jpg[/img]
second layer
[img]http://i.imgur.com/TZMsqCD.jpg[/img]
third layer empty
[img]http://i.imgur.com/mllf5IU.jpg[/img]
third layer filled
The last hot glue i used was circa 1995, and that stuff was probably 10 years old. I was surprised to see how fluid hot glue is. It doesn't flow into all the small spaces, but it will slowly ooze into smaller spaces you can't reach. Also the top settles down to almost flat after awhile. the old stuff would solidify almost as soon as it left the gun!

[img]http://i.imgur.com/kSlD0WQ.jpg[/img]


So, now I'm waiting to see if it will pause before it starts printing the roof. and nothing to do but sit here, so I thought I'd summarize my thoughts:
PROS
decreases print time enough that you could do a couple extra prints on the weekend when your technique is dialed in.
I hope it makes a more durable object than the filling at 30% that I've been doing
the glue is fluid enough to fill some smaller gaps
If you overfill a little the hot end passes through the bumps like butter - it doesn't seem to have affected the print
CONS
i started at 6PM it is now at layer 105/123 at 10:40; Print time is not drastically reduced.
if it pauses and you're not there, it will drastically increase print time. kinda useless for work days unless you have a REALLY hollow print
The hot glue I have is: $5 for 48 2" sticks (It's about the volume of a large grape fruit) at this price it may be worth strengthening smaller objects, but not filling in large art pieces
The hot glue gun DOES melt PLA. not so much that it ruined the print, but I'm glad I only had to get near the inside edges
adding @pause to the gcode didn't work. anyone have tips on this?


After the 3rd layer I think I nudged the build plate a little. You can't really tell in the pictures but it's off by a fraction of a mm.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/DUYfdqk.jpg[/img]


and the final product - I think I could have added a mm or so more glue, but it seemed to print the roof fine with no sagging. It is taking a while to cool. When I match it up to another version it seems slightly bigger by ~0.2mm. I was cleaning my garage as I printed and can't find my calipers right now.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/tu5U6gA.jpg[/img]

OK, lets wait a couple years and see if it held up!
Last edited by carter on Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Batteau62 »

Very interesting experiment, thanks for the pics and write-up :) It's this kink of experimenting that will move us forward in our endeavors :) I'm hoping to do some injection type trials this week. I'll post results. ;)
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by carter »

If anyone can help me with how to insert a home, pause command into my gcode it would really help!

tonight's experiment was printing my stock 30% infill card box end and pausing in the middle to add hot glue.

It seems to have worked ok. I stopped it at 75% and just started shoving in as much hot glue as I could. If i accidentally added too much, i could just push the glue gun tip in further to melt open more space.

This may be the best application for hot glue. You can reinforce small spaces that need strength e.g between nut traps and walls, but then add a very low percentage infill to the rest of the object. this would be low cost on hot glue and still speed up print time. the minimal infill (I'd probably drop down to 20% next time) will even make sure the glue stays in the place you put it!
too bad those spaces are too small on my model to fit the glue gun into :(

As I type, the glue seems to be slowly dripping down about 1mm - but then, the other experiment of this print is increase my print speed to 190% so maybe it's just printing higher, faster than I'm used to.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by carter »

I think my next experiment will be adding pebbles, sand, or all those laser cut blocks I have left over from my Orion Max kit, and then cementing them down with hot glue. Does anyone have any suggestions on a cheap, thermoplastic-adhering, material that is sold in 0.5-5mm^3 to use for this experiment?
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by geneb »

If you've got some fiberglass resin handy, try this - print the part hollow and drill a small hole in it. Pack the part in ice and then fill it with liquid fiberglass resin. Tape over the hole and keep it covered with ice. The ice should keep the curing resin from melting the part.

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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by snoman002 »

The cats meow would be a dual extruder setup with the second extruder using the flow ability of hot glue to fill say honeycomb infill (the slicer could calculate the volume) at certain intervals or just before the column was capped.

Even better would be 3d infill instead of 2d (bubbles not tubes) and the slicer fills each 'bubble' with hot glue, or some other material, just before it is capped by the next layer.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by carter »

i like your second idea, but i dont think less than 100% infill wold work very well with glue. i think it would start to sag pretty quick. and thats if you could get it to solidify in the right shape during the print. Also you would lose some of the speed, which seems like the main reason to use glue.

I went shopping for the fiberglass resin, but it was a bit expensive for experimenting. Got some quick set cement but I am a bit nervous about it. i imagine i don't want cement anywhere my nozzle.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by snoman002 »

I agree on the 100% infill. The hope would be the slicer and hot glue (or some other material) would be flowed into the volume just before the printing of the the next layer 'capped' the volume. The point being to inject a flowable infill material instead of 'printing' it. Kinda like pouring epoxy into each space in an egg carton.

The point of a 3d infill would be to both strengthen in all dimensions (why is infill on a 3d printer only 2d anyways) and allow the 'infill' head to inject only a small volume instead of trying to fill a column that goes from the bottom to the top of the part. And, that way the infill is only injected every 5/10/20 layers or so depending on pattern and base material infill percent. Thus making infill quicker and without having to print infill material on every layer.

Resin would scare me, both with the heat given off, and the possibility of shrinking/expanding upon curing. I wonder if a low density A/B expanding foam could be used without warping the part.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by teoman »

Solder would be a good option. A bit expensive, and it could melt your part, but you would be filling it with a metal.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Captain Starfish »

Solder melts way too hot - my iron is set to 360º for small work and 400º for the big stuff. And it adds a lot of weight without adding any real strength - very very soft.

I like the idea of epoxy, apart from the heat. I'm looking at using the printer to create moulds into which I can squirt the glass powder reinforced epoxy or polyester resin but using it to fill a finished part is pretty cute.

Expanding foam won't add a lot of strength either but it might be possible to find a mixture of agents which will foam up but have a much stronger material for the bubble walls. Honeycomb infill in 3d. :)
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by TFMike »

Captain Starfish wrote:Solder melts way too hot - my iron is set to 360º for small work and 400º for the big stuff. And it adds a lot of weight without adding any real strength - very very soft.

I like the idea of epoxy, apart from the heat. I'm looking at using the printer to create moulds into which I can squirt the glass powder reinforced epoxy or polyester resin but using it to fill a finished part is pretty cute.

Expanding foam won't add a lot of strength either but it might be possible to find a mixture of agents which will foam up but have a much stronger material for the bubble walls. Honeycomb infill in 3d. :)

Check out the cold cast resins and expanding foams on smoothon.com, I have a feeling normal 2 part epoxy/fiberglass will get too hot and deform/shrink the part but microbubbles and coldcast resin or expadning foam could be the way to go...
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Demolishun »

I was thinking about possibly using a UV curable epoxy. I know I have seen some videos on micro robots using this stuff to build small structures.

I think it could work well if you squirt a thin layer of it and then turn on a UV LED to cure it. UV LEDs are cheap now. Like a buck or 2 a piece. I don't know if there are any real safety issues with a UV LED though.

I searched Google for "uv curable epoxy" and got tons of hits from different companies for it.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Polygonhell »

Demolishun wrote:I was thinking about possibly using a UV curable epoxy. I know I have seen some videos on micro robots using this stuff to build small structures.

I think it could work well if you squirt a thin layer of it and then turn on a UV LED to cure it. UV LEDs are cheap now. Like a buck or 2 a piece. I don't know if there are any real safety issues with a UV LED though.

I searched Google for "uv curable epoxy" and got tons of hits from different companies for it.
There are commercial printers that do exactly that using modified inkjet print heads, some claim to be able to print optics.
There are some gotchas, the epoxy needs to be thin enough not to jam the head and it needs to cure with the right light frequencies.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Demolishun »

If used for filler I would just use a simple valve to control the epoxy. The UV LEDs were designed for industrial use, not for visual uses. UV will actually damage your eyes.

I would be more concerned with vapors and flash point temperatures as this would be in proximity with a 230 C hot end. I would be concerned with the cured epoxies tolerance of temperatures. If you have ever soldered near cyanoacrylate (Super Gllue) then you know its fumes hurt like hell in your eyes. I did see some of these UV cured epoxies tolerating higher temps so there might be one that fits the bill. One company had like 10 or 20 versions UV curable epoxies all with differing performance specs.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by RAMTechRob »

Have you tried Gorilla Glue? If you mix it with a little water, it will expand and fill the cavity. Maybe put it into a syringe and inject it into the cavity.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Eaglezsoar »

You know I was just reading through this thread and everyone of you have different ideas but the difficulty is in choosing which one
will work, you've created so many ideas that it is getting tough to sort through. Maybe we should start a new sub category for mold
making or whatever would be a better title.
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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

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Re: Injected Hot Glue for solid, fast, cheap 3D prints

Post by Demolishun »

I initially liked the idea of using a process that injected a resin while printing. However, what happens on a failed or imperfect print? You cannot just throw the resin laden print into a grinder and then make filament. It is now tainted by the resin and will most likely make a smoking nasty burning mess if you tried to make filament with it. So I am thinking a post process would be better. So redesigning the part to have easily fill-able hollow areas would be ideal for something you intend to put a resin into.

I have used Smooth-On resins and RTV. It is great stuff and really runs like water. Back in the day I used to make custom Star Wars figures with it.
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