Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

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Chrissi
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Chrissi »

JFettig wrote:Goldenrod are very low power devices, 8 watts, it probably won't get the heat up high enough.
My thoughts are that if the enclosure alone with heated bed and hot end make a significant difference then 2 or 3 goldenrods may be enough to boost and maintain a level of heat without having air blowing around.
Using a heat lamp some items will absorb the IR at different rates, some may be damaged or overheated while waiting for the ambient temp to reach cutoff.
If I were to switch to magnetic arms the JB Weld bonds would be in jeopardy.
So, looking for a gentler form of heat.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by NETio »

Meant to include, I have an E3D v5, not a v6, but a v6 should actually be even less sensitive to ambient temperature since it has a longer PTFE liner. As long as you ambient temperature stays below 90C I think you should be fine, since ABS glass transition temp is around 105C and even at that point it would likely still be solid enough to extrude, especially considering we're only talking about a few millimeters of filament in the hotend. ABS simply does not have the tendency to form a plug like PLA in our application.

My initial though on heating the chamber was power resistors on heatsinks with fans and active control with a microcontroller. I picked up what should've been 4 2Ohm 100Watt resistors, but they shipped 0.1 Ohm. I later ordered a couple 2.2 Ohm 50 Watt resistors but never used them either. Once I added the foam insulation I found that I really didn't need any more heat. Nylon may prove me wrong on this but I'm not even sure if heat helps it or not, I just know that I really like trimmer line lately but warping is an issue. It seems that once I get one thing working right (ABS in this case) I just can't be happy and have to move on to the next challenge.

As for using a goldenrod to heat it, that's not really ideal. $$$ per watt is very low. Keep in mind a certain huge commercial printing company uses 400 watt heaters in their printers. They also duct the hot air directly onto the printing layer to get it to the chamber temp as quickly as possible. I noticed that overhangs that worked fine at ambient temps required either support or a little airflow from a blower fan mounted on the effector (like the one now shipping on Orion and maybe RMax v2). I've been printing with support on all the time lately, it's worth it to me in materials cost and the tiny amount of time it takes to remove it to be guaranteed good overhangs and bridges. The cost of reprinting a failed part due to a single bad overhang far exceeds the time and materials cost of support material for me.

As for a picture of my enclosure, I don't think I have a picture of the outside of the new enclosure. I started with a simple wrap of radiant barrier insulation that looked even worse than it does now and I do have pictures of that. I also have some pictures of the inside of the new enclosure which looks very professional and nice on the inside. Not so much on the outside. I eventually want to use some brackets, probably derived from these brackets, to attach the foam more securely, fashion a proper door out of a rigid material including a window, although not a full window which would allow too much heat loss, and paint the entire exterior a nice gloss black to match the melamine rather than the current hideous green color of the foam.

As requested, the only pics I have. One is from before I finished the chamber by closing the front (I was still planning on a proper hinged door at this point) and the other is a recent (few days ago) picture of a print taken through the acrylic window, you can see a small reflection in the picture caused by the window. It's also worth noting that I used extremely thin acrylic for the window. I think it's something like 0.080 inches thick. 0.250 would likely insulate much better and should be fine for a heated chamber, albeit much more expensive than a sheet of insulation.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/sPZ5JFT.png[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/UEa1BHK.jpg[/img]
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Eaglezsoar
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Eaglezsoar »

Thank you for the pictures! It helped tremendously to visualize what you were speaking about and I like the look from the thermal foil.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by NETio »

I like the look on the inside, but the outside appearance is pretty bad. It looks like what it is, a few sheets of roughly cut foam taped around my printer. Thankfully the printed brackets keep them at straight angles and foil tape at the seams hides the majority of the inaccuracy in the cuts. I forget what I paid for the sheet of insulation, but I think it was around $15 or maybe less and I have a good amount leftover material. The radiant barrier insulation was somewhere around $15 too. Collectively I think it's cheaper than a complete acrylic enclosure, and probably holds heat better, but doesn't look anywhere near as nice. Although my ideal setup would be a professional looking system, which to me means something like the foil insulation on the inside with a black external enclosure. 360 degree acrylic looks cool, but a solid enclosure with one or more windows looks more like something a major company would mass produce. But again, at the end of the day all that really matters to me and probably a lot of other people is functionality, and my system achieves that right now.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Eaglezsoar »

NETio wrote:I like the look on the inside, but the outside appearance is pretty bad. It looks like what it is, a few sheets of roughly cut foam taped around my printer. Thankfully the printed brackets keep them at straight angles and foil tape at the seams hides the majority of the inaccuracy in the cuts. I forget what I paid for the sheet of insulation, but I think it was around $15 or maybe less and I have a good amount leftover material. The radiant barrier insulation was somewhere around $15 too. Collectively I think it's cheaper than a complete acrylic enclosure, and probably holds heat better, but doesn't look anywhere near as nice. Although my ideal setup would be a professional looking system, which to me means something like the foil insulation on the inside with a black external enclosure. 360 degree acrylic looks cool, but a solid enclosure with one or more windows looks more like something a major company would mass produce. But again, at the end of the day all that really matters to me and probably a lot of other people is functionality, and my system achieves that right now.
I also think that the cost of the acrylic is the limiting factor for me so I would like to use your insulation on the inside and a painted plywood exterior.
Thanks for the great ideas!
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by 0110-m-p »

Chrissi wrote:Thanks!
BTW, do you know Bruce Turrentine in Raleigh? He built our 13B-REW
I know of him, but have never met him. I build my own 13B's and am generally more a part of online communities than I am of local groups. Cool to see another rotary fan here on the forums though. If you're intersted you should check out the articles I have written about my project car for MotoIQ.

MotoIQ Project [Rotary] FD RX-7
Chrissi wrote:I noticed you have a MAX V1 as I do, how did you fit the upper enclosure mounts to the V1 upper melamine plate?
edit: okay I see they will in fact fit over the upper pulley mounts.
Next question; the E3DV6 hot end cold section probably is not going to be happy in this elevated temp. Piece of cake for the water cooled hot end guys, anybody have experience with the E3DV6 in an enclosure? Printing ABS.
The upper enclosure mounts slip over the top of the top of the top plate/end stop mount plates. It is mostly friction fit and gets held in place by the enclosure panel. I plan on drilling a few holes in my top plate though to make it more secure.

As for the hotend, since this isn't going to be a truly heated chamber I don't see it as being much of an issue. The temperature delta between the 240-270C nozzle and the 40-50C (if I'm lucky) build chamber should still allow the hotend to be cooled correctly with air.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by 0110-m-p »

NETio: Thanks for all the pictures and experiences...your prints look awesome. It's awesome to see that you can hit 60C without additional heating.

Also, sorry everyone for the lack of updates....I have too many projects ongoing at the same time (my typical mode of operation). I have been planning on using 100% 1/4" polycarbonate sheet on mine but the price is also holding back my progress on this.

The other part I'm having trouble with is sealing materials. I want to use a bulb seal around each panel (rather than something like tape), but again the material I want to use is quite expensive and I would need ALOT of it (nearly 30 feet to get a piece between each panel and its mating surface). So research and brainstorming is ongoing.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Chrissi »

To seal the panels to each other how about printing joiners, do it in sections maybe 6" tall or some multiple of the panel height. Would look like a bent capitol "H"?
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by 0110-m-p »

Chrissi wrote:To seal the panels to each other how about printing joiners, do it in sections maybe 6" tall or some multiple of the panel height. Would look like a bent capitol "H"?
That could definitely work for the panel to panel interfaces and would give a bit of tolerance to the whole system. For sealing each panel to bottom and top melamine plates I was thinking of designing my own version of this kind of edge seal and printing it out of flexible nylon trimmer line.

[img]http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDcxWDUyMw==/$(KGrHqZ,!o!FBbIQee3BBQdu,yEtDQ~~60_35.JPG[/img]

[img]http://www.devicetech.com/Images/Produc ... st_PG2.jpg[/img]
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Eaglezsoar
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Eaglezsoar »

I like the looks of that edge seal and I think it could work well.
Do you have a source for that type of seal?
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Chrissi »

We have done business with these guys for seals on our RV project:
http://www.parkin-acc.com/page39.html

They represent one of the two largest seal manufacturers in the USA.
...Chrissi

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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Eaglezsoar »

Chrissi wrote:We have done business with these guys for seals on our RV project:
http://www.parkin-acc.com/page39.html

They represent one of the two largest seal manufacturers in the USA.
They do have a lot of different seals. Thank you for the link.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Print_This »

thanks for sharing the build your prints are very nice, where is the PLA from? i just want a nice clear encloser with a magnetic door :)
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by rdefrancisco2310 »

What size are those inserts? I measured an 8.20mm-8.45mm diameter for the insert holes on the brackets. M8s seem like they wouldn't be snug and M10s seem like they'd be way too tight.
0110-m-p wrote:Got all the heat-set inserts installed and will hopefully be finishing it up this weekend. Still trying to decide if I want to spend the money on 1/4" acrylic panels for the entire enclosure or if I want to do painted wood with acrylic windows (would be MUCH cheaper).

Anyway on with the pictures...

Heat-set insert installation tip installed in my 40W soldering iron. Setting "4" on the iron seemed to work well.

[img]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7580/151 ... c98f_b.jpg[/img]

Pre-loaded inserts into the first top and bottom mounting bracket. Holes are a little undersized for these inserts, but a bit of extra heat fixed that problem.

[img]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7466/151 ... 2096_b.jpg[/img]

First set of inserts installed....really gives printed parts a more professional look.

[img]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7580/155 ... e632_b.jpg[/img]

All mounting brackets complete with heat-set inserts...

[img]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/155 ... a515_b.jpg[/img]

Shot of the stainless hardware and polycarbonate hinges that I am planning on using. Hinges will look awesome on acyrlic/polycarbonate doors...maybe not so much on wood :(.

[img]https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5616/157 ... dcaa_b.jpg[/img]
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Xenocrates »

If you look at the box's of hardware, those are 1/4-20 screws. The blind nuts also work quite well for the purpose. I also advise not using the precise bracket design he is, if you have a V2, but rather the adapted design here: http://repables.com/r/719/
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by rdefrancisco2310 »

I did notice the size of the screws, but I always thought that blind nuts were measured by their outer diameter, not by the size of the screws that go inside them (silly me). Also, thanks so much for redesigning the top bracket! I was actually in the process of redesigning it myself, but you just saved me some time :) Did you change anything in the bottom bracket? Can't really notice any changes and I already printed those out, so I wouldn't want to print them again if nothing was changed. Again, thanks so much for your help!
Xenocrates wrote:If you look at the box's of hardware, those are 1/4-20 screws. The blind nuts also work quite well for the purpose. I also advise not using the precise bracket design he is, if you have a V2, but rather the adapted design here: http://repables.com/r/719/
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Xenocrates »

No changes at all in the lower bracket. Works perfectly well. I just need to print the shims to lock it in eventually. Or not, since it works just fine.
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Rostock Max V2, Duet .8.5, PT100 enabled E3D V6 and volcano, Raymond style enclosure
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by AlanZ »

I used nuts and bolts to fasten th brackets to the horizontal surfaces. It was actually faster than printing the wedges < s >
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by techstorage »

Not using the wedges will save you a step in the future if you add more wires; I had to modify my wedges with a hole so I can run additional wires up the cheapskate channel slots for a second hotend and stepper motor cables for dual head printing. I am using plastic banding strips from packages to cover the wires inside the channel.
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BlackMax.jpg
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Xenocrates »

You could run those wires through the holes in the brackets that are outboard (I personally use them for tools). I find that cable ducting deals with the wires, even though it doesn't look nearly as nice. I do plan to eventually print out some nicer looking cable ducts, but that's a Soon™ project.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Captain Starfish »

Looking good. Just realised I have spare acrylic from making an enclosure for a CNC mill, so it's time to get onto this I reckon. I've moved most of my cabling to a loom which runs up the back ages ago, so no worries on the channels. Might modify the Z tower top and bottom to support the conduit, but there should be another photo in here sometime soon :)
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by rdefrancisco2310 »

What color tint did you use on your enclosure? It has the perfect amount of dark. Also, what material is that? Acrylic or polycarbonate? How thick are the cuts? The original creator of these brackets recommends 1/4" thick.
techstorage wrote:Not using the wedges will save you a step in the future if you add more wires; I had to modify my wedges with a hole so I can run additional wires up the cheapskate channel slots for a second hotend and stepper motor cables for dual head printing. I am using plastic banding strips from packages to cover the wires inside the channel.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by rdefrancisco2310 »

I just made some tabs to lock the bottom brackets into place, you're more than welcome to use them. I've attached them to this post.
Xenocrates wrote:No changes at all in the lower bracket. Works perfectly well. I just need to print the shims to lock it in eventually. Or not, since it works just fine.
Attachments
Bottom Bracket Slot Tab.STL
Tabs that lock the bottom brackets into place. Should need to print six of them, two for each bottom bracket.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Captain Starfish »

Those wedges went in really well. So well, in fact, that I snapped 'em trying to dig them out again to remove the plates. Ooops.

I should have checked the parts in a CAD package before just printing them too - no McMaster Carr here in Oz and I'm struggling to find inserts big enough for the holes in those prints. Most are at least a couple mm smaller on the outer diameter.

Dang.
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Re: Enclosure build to print ABS and Nylon bigger and faster

Post by Windshadow »

Captain Starfish wrote:Those wedges went in really well. So well, in fact, that I snapped 'em trying to dig them out again to remove the plates. Ooops.

I should have checked the parts in a CAD package before just printing them too - no McMaster Carr here in Oz and I'm struggling to find inserts big enough for the holes in those prints. Most are at least a couple mm smaller on the outer diameter.

Dang.
Could you epoxy them in the larger holes?
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