PEI print bed surface experiments

[Generic Default]

A heated chamber reduces or eliminates warping, so as long as there is just a little bit of grip, you don't need a lot of adhesion. Some of the Stratasys printers can do nylon and they use glass filled plastic boards to print on, no glue at all.

[Tonkabot]

How hot does the heated chamber need to be?

I assume that we are free to make our own heated chambers, we just can't sell them or the patent nazis will descend.

[JFettig]

Just finished putting a PEI sheet on one of my glass plates with the 1/2" wide tape, what a pain that stuff was at first! It would just stick to the previous layer and make balls of goop. I wiped the sides down with isopropyl alchol, still had issues, then just pulled off 3-4 feet and finally it started to cooperate.

My sheet came in from Amazon at 11.75x11.875ish Should be fine since that is larger than the build area.

I applied tape to the PEI, then applied that to the glass, have something ready to smooth out or your fingers get a workout. I then used a kitchen shears to trim the corners of the PEI from the glass.

[Eaglezsoar]

Just finished putting a PEI sheet on one of my glass plates with the 1/2" wide tape, what a pain that stuff was at first! It would just stick to the previous layer and make balls of goop. I wiped the sides down with isopropyl alchol, still had issues, then just pulled off 3-4 feet and finally it started to cooperate.

My sheet came in from Amazon at 11.75x11.875ish Should be fine since that is larger than the build area.

I applied tape to the PEI, then applied that to the glass, have something ready to smooth out or your fingers get a workout. I then used a kitchen shears to trim the corners of the PEI from the glass.

Any problems with air bubbles under the tape?

[JFettig]

There are a ton of tiny bubbles that I don't think I could have gotten out. I left tiny gaps between each piece of tape in hopes that it has a channel for air to escape. I did print some parts for my enclosure last night and it seems to have gotten some bubbles out somehow right under the parts.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/49ADE0K.jpg[/img]

[mhackney]

That looks pretty good, don't worry about it! Those "bubbles" are about .001" or thinner and will not cause any problems. Mine looks very similar and I've been printing on it for almost a year (since this thread opened) and it has continued to be a fantastic surface for PLA and ABS.

cheers,
Michael

[JFettig]

Yup, they're pretty darn small. Their impact on the top surface of the ultem will be minimal.

I'm having corners lift at about 5" radius(1/2" from the build perimeter line), they only lift a little bit. during heat up, around 85C I can hold my finger on the outer perimeter no problem but towards the center its way too hot to touch. I have it set to 105C to make sure its hot enough far from the center but I don't know if its maintaining. I have a thin sheet of aluminum in the garage I might cut to be a heat spreader - I plan to cut out a 1/2" hole in the center and goober a little more RTV in the middle so the thermister doesn't touch the aluminum but the glass.

The 2 parts from the last print that didn't lift were quite difficult to remove, they cooled all night as I slept so the got taken off cold.

[mhackney]

I use an aluminum heat dissipator so my edges are very near the center temp. My sheet was 1/8" and there is only a few degrees temperature difference from center out. It is easiest to remove parts from the warm plate. If they do cool, simply turn on your bed heater and let it get up to temp, they should pop right off then.

cheers,
Michael

[Generic Default]

Yeah its too bad the glass plates have such a huge temperature difference between the center and the edge. I'm going to experiment with a 5/16th thick MIC-6 aluminum circle soon. The PEI is about 30 times thicker than the bubbles, so the top of the PEI is pretty much level. Even with the globs of adhesive, the PEI is still pretty flat.

Also, did anyone know that thin garolite sheets are in the same price range as PEI? I'm thinking about testing some out; if the sheet can stick to the same high temperature adhesive and stay flat over time, we may have an interchangeable print bed solution for all plastics.

[mhackney]

The only issue with using such thick AL is it requires a lot of energy to heat up. 1/16" would be ideal for heat dissipation. I use 1/8 because at one time I thought it would provide a flat surface too. Mine does but some of the ones I sold appeared to have relaxed and warped in shipping (this was over a year ago, maybe 2).

I use garolite for Nylon. It does not work well for ABS and PLA from my experience and it leaves a much coarser surface on the part than I care for. The bed surface is the most prominent surface on the fly fishing reels I print so it needs to be "pretty". I really like the matte side of the PEI for this, it leaves a perfect finish for my taste).

cheers,
Michael

[JFettig]

I have a piece of aluminum about .090 thick IIRC, I'll bring it to the inlaws christmas and cut a nice circle on the plasma table - hopefully it doesn't warp too much!

[mhackney]

Heat and thin aluminum is likely going to warp. I used a water jet to cut the 1/8". You might be better off with a bandsaw. Plasma has an intense local heat.

[BONE]

I have some 0.03" PEI and 0.043" copper sheet coming on tomorrow. Going to try the Nightwatchman method.

Has anyone tried using a contact or spray adhesive instead of tape and sheets?
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3m-spray-adhesives/=v4241e
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3m-contact-adhesives/=v425eq
http://www.mcmaster.com/#3m-high-streng ... es/=v426gr

Found some info on some 3M sheets also:
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1429 ... 300lse.pdf
I've found two 12x12 sheets so far on Amazon. What 3M part number are you guys using for the tape?
http://www.amazon.com/super-strong-doub ... 388&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/super-strong-doub ... 388&sr=1-1\n

[BONE]

My sheet came in from Amazon at 11.75x11.875ish Should be fine since that is larger than the build area.

Which one did you get from Amazon? Can you provide a link?

[nitewatchman]

468MP Tape with 200MP adhesive.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Y7 ... UTF8&psc=1

[BONE]

468MP Tape with 200MP adhesive.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Y7 ... UTF8&psc=1

Is it double sided?
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1040 ... -200mp.pdf

[nitewatchman]

yes

[JFettig]

My sheet came in from Amazon at 11.75x11.875ish Should be fine since that is larger than the build area.

Which one did you get from Amazon? Can you provide a link?

Same one everyone else bought from amazon

[mhackney]

Bone, I'd recommend reading or skimming through this thread. I started it last year before we knew how best to attach the PEI. I tried a lot of different adhesives, RTV, etc. The problem was that even though they were rated for the temperature, they release and PEI detaches. The 3M tape we use has proven reliable, is cost effective and works great. I actually used strips of 3/4" wide laid side by side. That works perfectly well too. The tiny bubbles and imperfections you in the final application have no effect whatsover. The plate is flat and smooth. I attach with the matte side of the PEI facing up as I like the look, it matches the rest of the print better.

I printer literally every day manufacturing parts I sell and prototyping things. I am *very* persnickety about finish quality, turn-around time, and part yield.

regards,
Michael

[BONE]

Michael,
I was looking back through the 20 pages of posts, but I wasn't sure what was the latest consensuses was on the layering.

So I went and ordered the 468MP sheet, which has short term heat resistance up to 400F (204C).
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1040 ... -200mp.pdf

I also ordered the 8153LE 300LSE, which is "Temperature Resistance: 3M™ Adhesive 300LSE is usable for short periods (minutes,
hours) at temperatures up to 300°F (148°C) and for intermittent longer periods of time
(days, weeks) up to 200°F (93°C). "

Looks the 468MP is the better option for heat resistance and cheaper per sheet. I might end up returning the 8153LE 300LSE, but I'll might also be curious to see if it works also.

I also ordered a roller for applying the tape and flatten the layers. I have experience with applying larger vinyl stickers with a card, so I guess that a similar technique is used in laying down the layers for material with the roller.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007W ... UTF8&psc=1

I'm also in the same boat currently where my print has been running now stop for the past 3 days. I'm going to be taking it with on Holiday with me just to keep up with a large customer order. Luckily it's all PLA, but I'm getting tired of the glue stick application and cleanup. Can't wait for being able to print ABS with way less issues also.

[mhackney]

The heated bed will never go much above 100°C so the 3M 468MP does not have problems. Unlike the 300LSE (which I also tried) the 468MP does not loose adhesion at 100°C and keeps the PEI firmly affixed. Everything else I tried eventually lost adhesion and the PEI pealed off. The RTV silicone was the next best but it finally gave up the ghost shortly too.

A roller like that or a J roller will help. I used a J roller. But be careful that 1) the glass is WELL supported on something dead flat and 2) not to use too much pressure.

I hear you about glue stick, tape, etc. I went through all that. Sure, you can get good adhesion and reasonably nice surface finish but the turn-around time was horrible! Now with PEI it's "pop and print"!

You're in Boston? I'm in Groton just northwest (and I love beer)!

cheers,
Michael

[BONE]

OK, so I canceled the 300LSE sheet, we'll see what happens. I think I just got the last 6 pack of the 468MP sheets, sorry guys.

I was thinking about making the copper/PEI sandwich first, then apply that to the glass. Yep, definitely need to make sure to apply in a flat surface and be careful about the pressure to the glass.

I'm going to be making event meetup pages soon for the event, I'll make sure to send one your way. (I too love Beer.)

[nitewatchman]

I considered attaching the PEI to the Copper also. After a few Nano seconds, the thought popped into my head that if the print were stuck to the PEI as well as I expected the force to pop the print loose might be enough to twist or warp the copper, especially if it were thin. Given this I decided to attach the PEI to the Borosilicate glass and run the copper underneath the glass in direct contact with the heated bed. Just be sure to place a strip of Kapton tape over the several through plated holes in the bed surface.

Next experiment next week is to run a piece of Refractory Paper between the heated bed and the snowflake. This should stop heat loss from the bottom of the bed.

[mhackney]

I was going to say that nitewatchman! Copper bends ver easily, even 1/8" sheet. I think it would quickly warp and be impossible to flatten properly. If you stick the PEI to glass, you can simply flip the glass over and print on the glass side if needed. I do that all the time, the minimal insulation from the PEI doesn't really effect heat up on my bed.

[JFettig]

I was thinking about having a disk waterjet out of spring steel, similar to that other geckotek plate. Then I could flex it to remove the prints.

I'm still having issues removing my prints, they lift out by the edges of the build plate but if they didn't, I'm afraid I couldn't remove them without damaging the build plate.

I think that once I have a heat spreader on there I can print at lower temps, I have it cranked up to 105 to make sure the outer edges are warm enough for large prints.