Print Polyamide at 600 degC?

[justingray]

I have a sample of polyimide extruded into filament form. Its cool stuff, and very very expensive! Its most interesting property is its very high melting point. polyimide need a melting temperature of at least 600C, possibly as high as 650C. I want to try and print something with it. The goal would be to 3d print tooling for composites manufacturing where they need to cure at temps around 350C and high pressures.

I have an e3d v6 hot end, that I am currently adding a thermocouple to. However, I see a few potential problems coming my way.
1) Can the heater cartridge even get me enough heat to get up that high? (no idea!)
2) 600C is getting awfully close to the melting temperature of aluminum, which the heat exchanger at at the top of the heat break is made of... so um I might accidentally melt that
3) the PTFE tubing in the hot end, which goes all the way down into the heat break can definitely not take anything near that temperature.
4) The brass nozzle should be able to handle that kind of temperature, but maybe not... I should probably get a stainless nozzle.


I have some ideas of potential solutions for my potential problems:
1) Switch to a 24 volt heater cartridge and run it off a SSR if I have to (jeesh!)
2) machine a new heat-exchanger out of brass (or maybe stainless steel)
3) use a small polished metal bushing instead of the ptfe tubing
4) buy a stainless nozzle

Ok. I'll admit this really sounds like a bad idea. Someone please talk me out of it!

[KAS]

Wonder if the plastic effector can handle that radiant heat. I have a sample of PEI ULTEM 9085 filament coming, but it just has a melting temp of 320ish.

[Eric]

It's certainly not for the faint of heart. Keep your fire extinguisher handy. And the safety aspects go up with temperature too. 600C molten anything is dangerous. Eye protection at the very least.

It's probably outside the specifications of a typical reprap heater cartridge, but that doesn't mean they won't do it. It's certainly possible to make them glow red (steel will have a visible red glow at 600C), but who knows how long they will last at those temperatures. If they don't work, there are cartridges or heater bands on the market designed for much higher temperatures.

The heater/nozzle block itself would need to be something with a higher melting point than aluminum. Copper comes to mind, but there are other choices. I think the cold end could remain aluminum, but you may need to improve the active cooling fan. Insulating the hot end would require some high temperature product.

You'd need something new to monitor the temperature...the glass bulb solution most of us use is already pushing the limits of that technology at 450C.

I'm not saying you can't do it, but it'll require a lot of research on your part to put everything together.

[KAS]

http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Stra ... B00I50FUBG

[TFMike]

KAS, where did you get the Ultem sample?

[elmoret]

I doubt you really need 600C for Polyamide, or any polymer really. Do you have a data sheet for this polymer?

1.) Yes, a 40 watt heater cartridge can get to 550ish C.
2.) The heatsink is not a problem, it will be well under 200C. The heater block is a big problem, that's made of aluminum and will easily melt at 600C.
3.) Again, the heatsink will not e anywhere near 600C so this is not a problem.
4.) Brass is good to 800C +, not an issue.

[JFettig]

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet. ... 35bdf1a672

[BONE]

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet. ... 35bdf1a672

Looks like the Glass Transition Temp is around 380C. Were you looking at the Decomposition Temperature for the 600C?

[Tincho85]

For the heatsink you can make something like this:

[img]http://i743.photobucket.com/albums/xx78 ... 0e687d.jpg[/img]

http://forum.e3d-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=66

[Eric]

http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet. ... 35bdf1a672

Good catch. Really looks like one wouldn't need more than 400C to extrude that stuff, not 600C.

[KAS]

KAS, where did you get the Ultem sample?

I contacted SABIC looking for PEI filament, they said they only produce the raw resin and pointed me to a company in Korea making filament out of it. I requested an engineering sample and shamelessly used my military address and email. Surprisingly they said yes, although that was a week ago.

http://www.3disonprinter.com/material-ultem.php

[Mac The Knife]

You didn't get a sample of their "chocolate" filament? (or paste)

[KAS]

You didn't get a sample of their "chocolate" filament? (or paste)

lol if they come through on the PEI filament, I'll ask for that next.

[justingray]

So I made a big mistake on the temperature. The needed temperature is more like 450C. This is a pretty special polimide compisition. Its crazy expensive. $550 dollars per kilogram. At some point I was told 400 - 450C and my brain remembered it as 600C.

So its still hot, but not too hot. Thanks for all the advice!

[BONE]

Any update on printing with PEI?

[bot]

Yeah, here's the update:

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[cope413]

It's not Ultem, but I just got a sample of PEEK filament (which is also ridiculously expensive).

Got a thermocouple hooked up to my E3D.

It's apparently a BEAR to print with, and I need to work on the enclosure issue a bit more, but I'll be attempting to print a J-Head sleeve for the first print.

I'll let you know how it goes.