Our Military Men and Women

[Eaglezsoar]

Something to Think About!

Low military pay was not mentioned in the State Of The Union speech.
However, increasing the minimum wage was for those fast food employees
striking for $15 an hour. Let's do some math:

At $15 an hour Johnny Fry-Boy would make *$31,200* annually.

An E1 (Private) in the military makes* $18,378*.

An E5 (Sergeant) with 8 years of service only makes $35,067
annually.

So you're telling me, LaTisha McBurgerflipper, that you deserve as much as
those kids getting shot at, deploying for months in hostile environments,
and putting their collective asses on the line every day protecting your
unskilled butt!?

Here's the deal, Baconator, you are working in a job designed for a kid in
high school who is learning how to work and earning enough for gas, and
hanging out with their equally goofy high school pals. If you have chosen
this as your life long profession, you have failed. If you don't want
minimum wage, don't have minimum skills.

If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If it's in English, thank a Veteran.

[KAS]

Thank you for this post. Myself being active duty Air Force and my wife who's a Elementary Teacher can appreciate that. It took my oldest son about a year of looking and applying everywhere to land his first job at DQ. Every typical fast food place around here has adults working at what we would consider high-school jobs.

[Eaglezsoar]

Thank you for this post. Myself being active duty Air Force and my wife who's a Elementary Teacher can appreciate that. It took my oldest son about a year of looking and applying everywhere to land his first job at DQ. Every typical fast food place around here has adults working at what we would consider high-school jobs.

I had 6 years in the Navy Poseidon Submarine service as a computer tech, thank you for your service.

[626Pilot]

Agreed.

Seattle has begun a plan to boost the minimum wage to $15 over the next few years. What impact will this have on inflation, and job availability?

It will make inflation worse. Because employers will have to pay more hourly, they will have to increase their prices in order to keep up. This means that the cost of goods and services will rise, therefore reducing the value of the dollar, therefore boosting inflation.

It is also likely to cost jobs. Employers will have to do the math and decide whether they can afford to have the same 30 employees at $15/hr that they have at $10/hr now. Out of town shops will be able to sell cheaper than they will, so the slack is going to have to come from somewhere.

Many firms decided to cut their employees' hours to 29/week when Obamacare mandated that they had to buy health insurance for anyone 30 hours/week or over. This was utterly predictable; if the cost of an employee goes up, the motivation to keep that employee on goes down. (Ask all the people whose fathers and grandfathers were elevator operators if you need to know what happens when employees start costing more than other alternatives, such as laying them off or simply automating their jobs out of existence.)

Likewise, the job market in Seattle will become more impacted as more people say to themselves, "Hey, I can get $15/hour doing something that requires no special skills."

The fact that these jobs require no special skills should worry the people who hold them, and who advocate for forcing business owners to pay more for them to be around. AI and robotics are going to start gobbling these jobs up relatively soon, in perhaps five to ten years. Inroads are already being made. Orchard Supply Hardware is getting ready to deploy a fleet of robots that trundle around the store at night, scan all the items on the shelves, and use this to figure out where everything is. They can then lead customers to precisely what they need, interacting through a pleasant touch-screen interface.

How many of their marginally helpful associates will still be around in five years? Not many, I'd wager. Who wants to deal with someone who sighs and acts annoyed when you ask them to help you? I get it - customers are less interesting than checking Facebook on your phone and talking to your friend Steven from shipping and receiving. You just go right on ahead being unhelpful. The robots that will replace you very, very soon will never put on any display of annoyance to me, or any other customer.

The US federal and state governments are totally behind the curve on this as well. They still think the economy is going to be fundamentally the same for decades to come, which is so laughable that I wouldn't even qualify it as a farce so much as blind stupidity fueled by ignorance, preposterous lack of vision, and a complete and utter failure to use cause-and-effect thinking. They still think the Robin Hood method of forcing people who have money to subsidize those who don't is going to work. But when the people who have money find their revenue streams drying up - because they have nothing to offer that a robot with an AI can't do faster, cheaper, and without filing lawsuits because they didn't get promoted, or having office romances that cause acrimony and turn the office into a zoo - well, that's a bit of a problem, isn't it.

The money machine is going to stall out sooner or later because even people like you and me, who have more advanced skills, will be competing with AIs. Once general AI gets good enough, I wouldn't trust my skills as a programmer to earn me a dime. 3D design? That's WAY simpler than programming. That's going to go out the door years sooner. Yet, the government continues to think it can keep tightening the screws on business owners, making them pay more and more and more in return for work that's made less and less valuable all the time. This is not sustainable. It will not work going forward.

The question of whether a shelf stocker deserves more pay than a soldier depends on personal moral considerations, and I don't know that it can be answered definitively. One thing I can tell you is that once the money supply gets far enough out of balance, it won't matter whether anyone thinks a soldier should make more than a soda jerk. Robots will be doing both of their jobs soon enough.

[stonewater]

Gentlemen,

thank you for your service. For myself, being in an industry that hires part timers and kids going thru hi school, I can tell you if this passes, our margins are small enough that we will no longer be able to survive. it will destroy us, literally.

120 seasonal jobs gone, 5 management jobs gone, 15 vendors with no revenue from us. the loss of income tax base for my state city and local economy, the fallout of this will be devastating, the only companies left will be wal mart, Costco, and a few chain restuarants. mom and pop will be gone forever.

Tom C

[626Pilot]

I still remember the UFCW strike of 2003. I remember being jeered by a ~50 year old man for crossing the picket line. (Which I have before, and might again, if I had to.) I never once demanded help from anyone in negotiating higher wages from any boss I worked for. I never once demanded that my own customers go to a different business, in order to push my boss around. I didn't see that as their problem. I detest it when people put their problems on others, expecting the world to give a parental level of support to them forever, always giving them whatever they want.

These people in their 20s-50s who think they're going to retire on their job putting bread on shelves are in for a HUUUUGE shock. They will find out what happens when ideology tries to demand free pony rides from the same planet that has mercilessly killed almost every species that ever existed on it.

Things are going to get weird. Soon.

[barry99705]

I always thought it was funny I qualified for food stamps while working for the government. What's really effed up is the same position as a civilian technician doing the exact same job makes easily double what I did. I got out after 11 years because I couldn't handle the stupid anymore. The only thing I miss is the good healthcare and cheap haircuts.

[Wes@MachWax]

Is $15/hr too much, or are working wages in general been so stagnant that our middle class has developed the crabs in a barrel mentality? Both?

Regardless, military pay is far too low considering their sacrifice. I am appalled to know that so many useless elected officials are given a salary that is 5 times, or more than that. I am also appalled to know what our vets have to go through to get basic heath care, while many of those same elected officials have the platinum insurance plans.

[Jimustanguitar]

There are many CEO's that average about 300x the pay of their average worker, and when you look at graphs of the economy, pay for execs usually goes up when recessions and layoffs are happening. It's shameless.
There's a movement to limit executive pay to 10x what the lowest paid employee makes. I agree, but doubt it will gain traction in a world that's run on money.

To our service men and women. Thank you. There's no question that you're owed more than you receive, and it' not fair. You're owed a debt of gratitude as well.

[stonewater]

there is something everyone is missing here,

a 15 dollar "living" wage is paid for by YOU!! the cost of all of your food, clothing and rent will increase. your income taxes go up so the government gets to bend you over for even more money. it also gets to bend over your employer because he is paying a bunch of other taxes you DON'T pay... never seen a government that did not like higher taxes. and have never seen them do anything but increase their budget every year. people pull your heads out!! the money comes out of your pocket in a society where the free market runs, and it runs best (prices are cheapest, value is highest) when government gets out of the way, and skill sets determine your worth to your employer. your job is only as good as the economy, bad economy no work.


if you don't like your minimum wage job, get yourself educated and do something that will pay you more. stop looking for some magic law that will let you do nothing and get paid for it. we have the cheapest education system in the country and you can get a 4 year college education for 10 Grand if you do it right. libraries are everywhere, learn a new skill and make money.

I have a friend of mine he is from yuahaca mexico. he walked here to the u.s. got his green card, and started working for me. he went and got himself a contractors license and started mowing yards. I taught him how to do sprinklers and landscaping, showed him how to work with plant materials, and lay pavers. he worked 80 hours a week for 6 years until he could stop working for me and run his business full time. he now has 3 guys under him and will probably clear 200K this year. he worked his *SS off to get where he is, he came over here flat broke destitute, willing to do anything.


those hi paid ceo's are a drop in the bucket compared to the mom and pop businesses that will be screwed by this. it will be interesting to watch as downtown seattle is slowly made vacant by this law. I was there a few weeks ago, its already looking pretty sad. I walked up pike street from the market up past the freeway, to the new starbucks roastery. gameworks looks run down, there are a ton of vacant first floor shops, and I got hit by pan handlers for a full 4 blocks. from 2nd to 6th, literally 20 guys. had no cash, but I did pray for quite a few, some appreciated the care and some said no thanks.

the minimum wage is a stake in the heart of the economy.

Tom C

[Jimustanguitar]

if you don't like your minimum wage job, get yourself educated and do something that will pay you more. stop looking for some magic law that will let you do nothing and get paid for it. we have the cheapest education system in the country and you can get a 4 year college education for 10 Grand if you do it right. libraries are everywhere, learn a new skill and make money.

I'd love to see the financials of living, eating, and going to school on $18k per year. I'm sure it's possible, but I know that I couldn't do it.

[bot]

Yeah, this is making me feel very uncomfortable reading all of this. I have the sense that a lot of you do not know what it is like to live with a low-paying job, and how impossible it is to "just get yourself educated and get a better job."

To be frank, I'm really embarrassed to be among a group of people who write stuff like this.

[KAS]

Is $15/hr too much, or are working wages in general been so stagnant that our middle class has developed the crabs in a barrel mentality? Both?

Regardless, military pay is far too low considering their sacrifice. I am appalled to know that so many useless elected officials are given a salary that is 5 times, or more than that. I am also appalled to know what our vets have to go through to get basic heath care, while many of those same elected officials have the platinum insurance plans.

I'll say it's both. My son for example while in high-school worked for DQ just over a year. Part of the requirement before we allowed him to work, was an understanding that half of his check would go into savings and not touched. He didn't once say that he needed more money or talk about striking for higher wages. When he was paid, half went in saving and the other on junk kids typically purchase. He was happy to have a job because it took a while to find employment. It's the adults working these types of jobs that are complaining. Maybe rightfully so because adults have bills, rent, utilities etc; whereas younger ones typically don't.

Now you have the majority of the working class pissed off because they wont see a 50% pay increase that separates the entry jobs to middle class. For example my wife who's a teacher is paid nowhere close for the amount of hours she puts in. The state of Ky requires all teaches to have a BA in education and obtain a Masters within the first 5 years of employment. So now you have teachers with 50k+ in education expenses to work a job that pays 36k a year, about 17 bucks an hour.

That's when you start to see the issue of someone with a Masters degree in a career job working for $17/hr compared to someone at McDonald's making $15/hr. That's a hard pill to swallow.

[redoverred]

Yeah, this is making me feel very uncomfortable reading all of this. I have the sense that a lot of you do not know what it is like to live with a low-paying job, and how impossible it is to "just get yourself educated and get a better job."

To be frank, I'm really embarrassed to be among a group of people who write stuff like this.

I agree 100 percent with this sentiment, this is the kind of post that will make me flee from this forum and SeeMeCNC in general. I recommended someone come to this forum just the other day, but in the future I will certainly NOT do that if this keeps up! It's embarassing. This was POSTED by someone who appears to be an employee or moderator? Politics or religion don't belong here, even if this is the off-topic board. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Not everyone in minimum wage jobs can get an education and get a high paying job, there just aren't enough jobs. Also, as a former E-3 in the military, we were payed plenty for what we did, especially when you include housing allowance, food allowance, etc. I am seriously 100 percent going to quit this forum and company if this shit isn't removed immediately. here are some examples of lunacy encountered here:

you can get a 4 year college education for 10 Grand if you do it right

That is utter and complete BULLSHIT, you are way out of touch.

LaTisha McBurgerflipper

This is really FUCKING racist. What the hell?

Baconator

Now you're going to make fun of someone who is working for a living, whether it's minimum wage or not? Christ.

a 15 dollar "living" wage is paid for by YOU!!

OH GOD! We'll have to ensure that our fellow humans are able to live above the poverty line? WHAT MADNESS!

I was there a few weeks ago, its already looking pretty sad.

A law that hasn't even passed yet has already affected Seattle? What the fuck, guy?

[Glacian22]

I've got to weigh in on team Yay Raising Minimum Wage. If men and women in the armed services really are earning only 18K, then that's too low and should be raised as well.

I live in Seattle, and I run a small business, so believe me I've been following the possible pros and cons of raising the min wage VERY closely. Compared to historical minimum wage, like in the 50s and 60s, our current one is very low. Basically someone working 40 hours per week at 9 dollars per hour has WAY less buying power than someone back then...and that's not even taking into account how much more college costs now (several times more, post adjustment for inflation). So if minimum wage could be the equivalent of $15 in the past, why can't it be that now?

[bot]

I thought I was going to be lynched for speaking up. I'm glad I'm not alone. I too have recommended people come here for information, but I will hesitate to do so if we have such bigotry on display.

[Glacian22]

I mean, I totally understand people's concerns about raising minimum wage...there's got to be some ideal level it should be, and obviously you can't just boost it to saying everyone makes $100/hr, that would be insane. But for some reason people get stuck in the mindset of "Well if min wage is currently X, then that's clearly perfectly calibrated". For a bunch of people who spend way to much time optimizing their robots for optimal performance, that's a pretty strange stance to take...

[KAS]

I've got to weigh in on team Yay Raising Minimum Wage. If men and women in the armed services really are earning only 18K, then that's too low and should be raised as well.

I live in Seattle, and I run a small business, so believe me I've been following the possible pros and cons of raising the min wage VERY closely. Compared to historical minimum wage, like in the 50s and 60s, our current one is very low. Basically someone working 40 hours per week at 9 dollars per hour has WAY less buying power than someone back then...and that's not even taking into account how much more college costs now (several times more, post adjustment for inflation). So if minimum wage could be the equivalent of $15 in the past, why can't it be that now?

I wouldn't say it has the same buying power as it did back then. For example 1956 minimum wage was $1.00, milk cost .97 cents. Today minimum wage is $7.25 and milk averages 3.67. Basic commodities have always been the litmus test of the USD value. Our buying power is higher today for sure.

I don't think anyone would care what the minimum wage raised too if it was equal across the board. Imagine if you work at a company for 10+ years and finally made $15.25 an hour. Next month the minimum wage increases to $15.00 and all of a sudden that hard work "value" was given to every new person that walks through the door.

College has always been a touchy subject with me. I don't want to piss on anyone's Wheaties, but that aspect that everyone deserves a college degree is utter crap. Very few profession actually require a degree to be successful. Universities are a business model, they depend on students to keep the money flowing in, hence the 100's of subjects they teach with no real value. With that said, I'll contradict myself as I have three degrees without paying one damn cent and I've never touched my GI Bill. I'm not talking Major and Minor stacking, three separate degrees. That's a whole different story that involves accreditation...

[bvandiepenbos]

If you don't like this thread then don't read it.

[Glacian22]

Whether everyone needs a college degree is a good point, but the fact remains that if you don't have one, many employers won't even consider you. And it's still true that if you get a degree in a concretely useful field, say engineering, that four year degree is crazy expensive proportionally compared to thirty years ago. It used to be that you could work part time to pay your way through a state college, and now you just absolutely can't. I can't tell you how many friends I have who graduated college with me, with 60K or more in loans hanging over them, despite working the whole time. It's absolutely soul crushing.

You have a point about buying power of today's minimum wage not being as bad as I thought (did some quick googling, looks like minimum wage hit it's peak in 1968 and has been dropping ever since relative to inflation), so for some basic commodities it looks like it's still roughly holding level.

That bit about feeling undervalued if you worked hard for $15, and suddenly everyone gets boosted there through no effort of their own has a big logic hole in it. Let's say that minimum wage were lower than it currently is, $5/hr. You get a job, work your way up through the ranks by working hard, and after several years and several promotions you're earning $9/hr. Then suddenly minimum wage gets boosted to $9 too...so you're pissed off. Minimum wage here in Seattle was $9.19 before the increase got voted in...see what I'm getting at?

[KAS]

That bit about feeling undervalued if you worked hard for $15, and suddenly everyone gets boosted there through no effort of their own has a big logic hole in it. Let's say that minimum wage were lower than it currently is, $5/hr. You get a job, work your way up through the ranks by working hard, and after several years and several promotions you're earning $9/hr. Then suddenly minimum wage gets boosted to $9 too...so you're pissed off. Minimum wage here in Seattle was $9.19 before the increase got voted in...see what I'm getting at?

Honestly I might be missing your point, I know Seattle's cost of living is higher than most. What I was getting at is the income wage increase is not equal across the board. That's what I meant above in regards to my wife as a teacher. Minimum wage here in KY is the same as the majority the US, $7.25. My wife with a mandated requirement to have a Masters degree to teach is making roughly $17/hr. When/if the U.S. minimum is raised to 15$, the valuation of her job would be cut in half because her pay would not increase at all.

People making less than $15 would be happy, no doubt. People making just over $15 wont be because income gap that separates a higher paid job, just became equal to a typical entry level fast-food position.

anyways, I didn't want to start any issues here. I've been in the military 18 years and been all over this world. We're lucky to be able to express these kind of issues. Many others don't have that freedom at all. I wouldn't get all worked up over this post, it's really not a big deal in the scope of real world issues. At least not from my perspective.

[stonewater]

@ redroverred


thank you for your service, means a lot to me.

a 2 year degree from a community college (half of a 4 year one) will cost you 5K max, work on grants you can get it for less. if you are anything poorer than a white middle class male you can get it almost for free. education is something the U.S. prides itself on and it is all around you.

if you are not interested in going ivy league education can be inexpensive. I am speaking from experience. even better go to a trade school and learn something with your hands, then work your way thru college like I did, making minimum wage, living in a flop house, eating top ramen for months on end, working 3 jobs. you are only limited by the size of the handout you expect.


look at history, look at what happens to urban centers when it gets too expensive to do business there.. its called urban blight....

you don't get it.... you raise the wage, ALL prices go up.... then they have to raise it AGAIN... then all the prices go up.... its a cycle that no matter how much the poor make working minimum it WONT BE ENOUGH..

@glacian22

Perhaps you can tell us what the wage increase will actually cost you based on the number of employees you have and their hours.... are you currently hiring full time and already absorbing the cost of healthcare for your employees? how are you going to compete with the guy across the street who is just outside seattle city limits who can sell 30% cheaper than you because he is paying federal min and not seattle min?

@bot,

I would not even think of "lynching" someone (now that's a word with racist undertones) just because they disagree with me, you are welcome to your opinion as we all are... your posts have helped me a lot. believe me I know what its like to work low paying jobs, to go hungry, to think about stealing to fill my stomach. please do not make a snap judgement that someone cannot possibly understand what its like to be poor, because they don't like the idea of raising the minimum wage...... I am not now poor but I was for a very long time. I support homeless shelters, soup kitchens, I have a mother and her daughter living in my home for the last 10 years for free (not my kid and no relation to me other than she is a friend) I support 2 orphans with food clothing and education every month. I give away as much as I can.... I put my money where my mouth is. I have lived the life I am a proponent of nothing more.

everyone can educate themselves. everyone. I refuse to limit the ability of the individual to go as far as they can. humans have more potential than you can possibly imagine.

@all


I enjoy all opinions, even ones that I vehemently disagree with.... but using expletives is a sure sign of ones inability to comprehend the depths of ones ignorance on a matter. incredulity of anothers opinion does not become a person who is trying to articulate a point, that somehow anyone who does not agree with MY point is a cro magnon or a moron...

I am out!!

Tom C

[bot]

To be honest, raising the minimum wage is a lot more about raising the bar for everyone than it is a free payday for unskilled workers.

Lots of industries abuse young and hungry people who have valuable talents. It is not uncommon for people, for example in the film/production industry, to be making on average $15/hr or LESS doing highly professional skilled labour. If the minimum wage is increased, these highly skilled people would be paid more fairly.

A lot of people in this thread are obviously brought up with the "i get mine you get yours" individualist attitude. We live in the 21st century, it's time we learn how to cooperate and bring ourselves as a species up a notch, rather than pitying, deriding and spitting on the people less fortunate than us.

[stonewater]

to be honest, the minimum wage is a way to take by legislation that which cannot be done thru market forces. its socialism.........

I do not pity deride or spit on anyone, and I refuse to look down upon an individual as someone who just cannot do any better. we are an amazing species with huge potential, capable of incredible things. when the individual realizes who he or she really is and stops believing the I cant, its to hard, it is too much, I am not smart, I am the wrong gender, or the wrong color, I was born on the wrong side of the tracks, all the excuses handed down, only then can they begin to achieve the impossible.

stop watching tv and study, stop buying mcdonalds and eat better, stop doing things to yourself that make you feel worthless. go help the old lady across the street with her yard, fix your neighbors car, feed a stranger. don't waste your life by doing nothing, and stop expecting government to solve your problems.

Temple university was founded on the principle that anyone can do anything, whatever it takes.

read this one first:

http://www.temple.edu/about/history/acres-diamonds

then this one:

http://library.temple.edu/collections/scrc/hattie


like they say give a man a fish you have fed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you have fed him for life. but what if there is no more fish? go read the book who moved the cheese..... this has been so true in my life, with so many people. I have helped mentored and lifted up countless individuals, and there are others who when it became clear they weren't even willing to help me put their boots on them I sent them on their way.

Tom C

[KAS]

To be honest, raising the minimum wage is a lot more about raising the bar for everyone than it is a free payday for unskilled workers.

Lots of industries abuse young and hungry people who have valuable talents. It is not uncommon for people, for example in the film/production industry, to be making on average $15/hr or LESS doing highly professional skilled labour. If the minimum wage is increased, these highly skilled people would be paid more fairly.

A lot of people in this thread are obviously brought up with the "i get mine you get yours" individualist attitude. We live in the 21st century, it's time we learn how to cooperate and bring ourselves as a species up a notch, rather than pitying, deriding and spitting on the people less fortunate than us.

I think you're missing the point but I don't see the need to explain something to a person who has no interest in what others are saying. Your opinion is myopic, and I have no problem with that. I'm not sure about Canada, so I'll keep my comments to my own personal experiences. Just remember, stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. You can call is racism, bigotry or whatever but you yourself instinctively classed a person based on a few words. Also, a baconator is a awesome sandwich from Wendy's if you didn't know.


Either way, I'm done in this topic. I suggest we let it die or delete the thread all together.