Diary of a RoStock Max V2 print

[IMBoring25]

Have you scraped the plastic from the previous incidents off the end and sides of the nozzle? Once deposits start forming on a nozzle it is far more apt to collect additional deposits.

[626Pilot]

Based on the video, it appears to be over-extruding. (Super hard to see, though - have you considered mounting the hot end BELOW the effector?) The extra filament is being pushed around by the nozzle. You can see it piling up near the loops in the first few seconds.

I whipped up this filament/arm length calibration method JUST FOR YOU: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1439048

Okay, it's not just for you. I'm working on it currently, and so far the results have been good.

The main idea is to ensure that your filament extrusion rate is totally freaking nailed, and that your arm lengths are set correctly. For now, I would only worry about the filament multiplier, which is covered in steps 0 and 1. After you get that tightened down, maybe the rest will be useful as well.

[terabyte]

I whipped up this filament/arm length calibration method JUST FOR YOU: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1439048
...Okay, it's not just for you.

Wow thanks for doing this! It looks very concise and serious. I think it is the first time when I've seen the suggestion to use an outside micrometer. This should be a part of Rostock manual. If we do not understand why our prints do not come out, we get frustrated, and without understanding of why and how to fix it, we give up. I won't be able to try the method for a few days though, as I am working on my Replicape.

[geneb]

You might want to check out chapter 12 in the user guide....


g.

[barry99705]

You might want to check out chapter 12 in the user guide....


g.

There's a user guide??!!

[Xenocrates]

There is (Now (Portions of the old manual got split off, and then it got added to)). However, There is no spoon.

[Stevolution]

User guide? I wish things came with a good old fashioned book. None of this PDF crap
I would happily pay a lump of cash for a decent manual.

Anyway, that ain't gonna happen.

Sat and re-tuned the entire thing tonight. The only setting that seems to have substantially drifted since I set it up last time is the extrusion. I had to alter the extrusion figure per mm from 92.65 to 98.8.
Now I get exactly 100mm of extrusion (well, filament usage) when I ask for that in Mattercontrol.

However, in theory, my prints will now over-extrude even more.

When you dial back the extrusion multiplier, what does that affect? Is it purely the amount of filament that is issued, or does it affect other elements as well?

[geneb]

Pay to have the PDF file printed in color. Bing! Instant decent manual for a lump of cash.

Extruder settings can't (as far as I know) "drift". The first figure is much closer to the default starting position - you might want to re-check.

Change only one thing at a time. Changing multiples will just have you chasing your tail in circles. Go back to calibration cubes if you have to.

g.

[IMBoring25]

He's running PETG now. Each different material is subject to having the knurling dig in a little differently and may change the calibration a little. It's only around 6.5%.

[Stevolution]

I have 'wasted' about 1.5 metres of Filament dialing in the extruder. It was certainly spot on for ABS, but it must be different for the PETG.
It was spooling out 96mm of filament when I asked for 100mm. I gradually increased the figure until I got exactly 100mm.
I am not wasting any more filament on that. It should be accurate enough.

To be honest, the way these prints have been so far, I doubt its going to make any difference until I actually find out what the basic settings are. I am still no closer to actually printing anything that is useful.

On the plus side, bought myself a lovely milling machine today.

[barry99705]

I've actually been having adhesion issues with pet-g lately. Not sure why, it's been printing great with just glue stick on glass. I found that printing on blue painter's tape with a 5 loop brim sticks the part down really well. I'm printing a replacement roller carriage for my cnc router. One of the original parts cracked with the temp change the other day, must have tightened one of the screws too tight.

[Xenocrates]

I personally feel that printing the manual if you want paper is probably far better than having SeeMe do it. For one thing, you can get the latest manual (which sometimes has fixes). You also save the expense of shipping a largish mass of paper, and the need for space in the box to put it in (As well as a binder or binding), which adds expense for both those of us who don't want/need it, as well as for those who do. It's nearly 3 pounds if printed on twenty pound paper (Over a Kilo for those with sensible systems of measurement), which at USPS standard rates is 7.50 for shipping alone added.

That being said steve, I got a nice taste of frustration similar to yours this week, although not to nearly the same degree. I wish you the best of luck resolving it, and thankfully things look to be improving. Once you get that mill running, be sure to send pictures of that. I hope that with a taste of success on the DIY manufacturing front, you'll be less frustrated, plus it gives you something to walk away from it to, that should largely 'Just Work'. Although from experience, it doesn't always. Unless you went for a tool-presetter, in which case, that's a really lovely mill.

[626Pilot]

Calibrating the extrusion steps/mm is a good idea, but I found it to be somewhat tricky. You have to lay the filament flat and measure it, but it wants to curl, so it's hard to get a precise measurement. It's worth it to do anyway, to get yourself as close as possible. After that, if you use the calibration system I posted on Thingiverse, you will absolutely nail the rate of extrusion for every filament that you run the single-wall test with. That will correct for any error in the steps/mm setting. There is a catch, though. You have to measure the filament in multiple places for the slicer's sake, and then you have to do the single-wall print to perfect the extrusion multiplier, for EVERY spool of filament, even if it's the same color from the same manufacturer.

If the filament is still piling up near the loops, and your extrusion is perfectly calibrated, your Z height is too low. Try reducing it down by ~50 microns. Also, when it draws the first layer loops, look at how flat the filament is.

It should look like this:

Code: Select all

 __
/   \

It should be a little rounded on the side, with a flat top. If it's way too flat, it'll pile up, causing these issues. On the other hand, if it's totally round on the top, the Z height is too small.

[terabyte]

You might want to check out chapter 12 in the user guide....
g.

Thanks, I did not miss the Chapter during the assembly. Perhaps, this should be the Chapter 1 I do agree that it is extremely useful.
TJ.

[Stevolution]

The first layer seems fine. It did seem fine before I calibrated as well. The layer is stuck down well, slightly rounded with a flat top - and pretty even over the whole print.

I am calibrating this extrusion thing correctly aren't I? When I tell Mattercontrol to issue 100mm of filament, I am measuring the amount it takes from the reel
I did look through the build notes, but didn't see extruder calibration. Did I miss it?

I simply measure the pulled taught filament (accurately), up from the hole in the top panel of the printer with a measuring device I made. Then I mark the filament with a bit of white tape and when that stops exactly at the hole, I am assuming accurate calibration.

I have not gone through the calibration cube stuff again (yet). At this rate, I am going to run out of PETG before I get it dialed in and I certainly am not buying more.

As for the milling machine... its great. Spent last night running off half a dozen aluminum pillars to hold the off-roading tracks on my pickup truck (http://www.stevecroot.co.uk/my-ford-ranger.html) if your interested.
I will mill the other 6 tonight. I planned to print the brackets with the 3d printer, but I have already waited a month while twaddling around with this thing... so I can't wait any longer.
Ignore the 3d printer page.... that got uploaded before I realised that you need to commit 8 evenings a week to this thing.

I will have to add a milling page to my website.

As for the manual. Is there any way that RoStock could let customers know by email that new instructions or guides are out and available? I got half way through my build before finding out that they had released build notes 3.
I had downloaded build notes 2 several weeks earlier and was working from those, and it lead me to building issues because I didn't know new stuff was out.

[Stevolution]

Well I sat down this morning and ran through the entire printer.... again

Googled for an hour and jotted down other peoples PETG settings and had another go.

5 minutes into the print and the nozzle jammed.

Goodbye Rostock MAX v2. You have been crap

[Holy1]

Goodbye Rostock MAX v2. You have been crap

Well now you have made the final decision would you be interested in tearing it down and selling , shipping the electronics?

... And the vultures start to circle...

[geneb]

I hate crappy compilers. The code generators never do what I want. They're junk.

g.

[Stevolution]

I am in the process of cleaning it all up and then its going on Ebay I think.
I have not known anything that is so time hungry for so little payback. I am sure someone who has the spare time, inclination and headache tablets will make far more of it than I have.

[terabyte]

I hate crappy compilers. The code generators never do what I want. They're junk.
g.

I would say that this is hilarious if it were not true. People tend to hate something that is supposed to work, but it doesn't, despite what the book says or what we think. After all, compilers are made by a combined effort of many people with the advanced knowledge of the subject. There are a few things in life that people become good at, but there are more things that would require unjustified time investment to achieve mastery, and yet there are things that we will never be able to do. It could certainly get frustrating. While it may be clear for experts what Steve needs to do to get the printer working, the situation looks completely different from his end. I believe that the community has made a good effort to help Steve, but time investment is something everyone needs to consider on their own.

I think that it would be helpful to have a separate "Printing" manual, which could start with the Chapter 12 from the User's manual. I do not know if SeeMe or anybody else has time to do that, but it would be advantageous for the business. We have hundreds of pages on how to assemble mechanical parts, wiring, and firmware, but we have only one Chapter on printing. In reality, assembly takes from a few hours to a few days, while printing is what Rostock is used for after that. Although printing quality depends on assembly (provided that manufacturing is perfect), calibrating and tuning plays the most important role after that. For example, I can use a table saw to make a reasonably good cuts, and they may be perfect if I am lucky, but if I know how to tune it, my cuts will be perfect all the time. With proper tools and knowledge, the setup could take anywhere from a few minutes (for an expert), to several hours. Now, the table saw is much more simple than a Rostock printer.

Anyway, if we had a clear step-by-step guide on how to actually tune the printer and perform prints, it would be very helpful for newcomers such as myself and Steve. Experts' contribution to the community is the most desirable, but, I can imagine, newcomers bring the most business to the company. We already have a good kit, and it would be very nice to have good instructions on printing. I know it may not be that simple, but it could be done. I know, that once the printer is properly set up, it can just print, and I can concentrate on a model design, rather than on figuring out why the filament does not stick to the bed. Since we do not have the detailed printing manual yet, I certainly appreciate efforts of everyone who offers help, but it does take longer to do that than to follow the manual.

[terabyte]

I am in the process of cleaning it all up and then its going on Ebay I think.
I have not known anything that is so time hungry for so little payback. I am sure someone who has the spare time, inclination and headache tablets will make far more of it than I have.

It is too bad that you do not have time for it, your example could have been beneficial for everyone else here. At this point, 3D printing is not plug-and-print, and delta design requires additional considerations. I had a good success with a prebuilt Cartesian printer before trying the delta. I do not have expertise to help you with your problems, but I have been lucky with my Rostock. Things that contributed to my success the most are: 1. following the manual 2. reading posts in SeeMeCNC forums (and elsewhere), 3. spending time, and spending a lot more than 1.5 meters of filament. PETG is not the easiest material to print with; it does have good first layer adhesion (usually) and low shrinkage, but it has other problems. I have seen people going back to PLA/ABS from PETG because they are unable to overcome its problems. At the time when somebody suggested to try a different filament, it made sense, but in a retrospect, you should have stuck with PLA before trying PETG. Keeping all parts stock is also important (as was also suggested earlier). For what I know, the problem you have could be in the extruder itself; E3D extruder is very common (and usually very good), but may be harder to diagnose.
Good luck.

[Stevolution]

I have put the hours in. Some serious hours. Its not a rant because it won't work out of the box.

1.5m of filament was calibrating the extruder.. I have used nearly 2/3rds the roll of PETG trying to get a print. I tried PETG because I was having failure after failure with the ABS. PLA was a nightmare - blocking the nozzle at nearly every attempt.
The E3D has not performed as I hoped. I don't have anything to gauge that against, but I read up on it before buying it and got the impression it would help make easier printing. Obviously not the case.

Again, 3 days after I give up, I get the twangs of .. 'Shall I give it another go'. I hate to be defeated. But, I have to draw a line. This thing does not achieve anything useful for me, apart from swallow time.
If I did by miracle get it working, I get the impression that 2 prints in or change of filament... and you are back to square one.

I stripped the hotend down again last night to check all was assembled correctly. Looked fine.
My PETG prints have just ended up a stringy, gooey mess. No amount of dialing in seems to stop this stuff oozing all over the place. Perhaps the PETG doesn't like the E3D hotend.

It drags the nozzle over the printed layers and it builds up on the end - then drops it randomly. I keep trying different layer heights, speeds, extrusion speeds, retractions. Nothing seems to improve it.

[IMBoring25]

I'm running a good amount of PETG through my v6 lately with no issues.

As much as I like my v6, all-metal hot ends are about being able to use higher-temp materials, not making printing easier. For trouble-free operation with a wide range of assembly configurations and settings (provided you don't exceed the temperature limits of the liner), lined hot ends are hard to beat.

It's just swarming you at the moment. You start getting things dialed in and then you have a jam. If you want to give it one more go I'd suggest fitting the kit hot end and making the necessary thermistor changes in the firmware. As long as you don't exceed its temperature limits it should not jam.

[Polygonhell]

FWIW I find Pet to be a pain in the ass to print well.
And I'm going to avoid the religious debate on E3D V6 and PLA, but you would not be the first person ever to have issues. I haven't used my V6 for PLA, I have a V4 2 V5's and a Kraken in addition, and of them the V4 and one of the V5's will not print PLA, the V6 design was changed to reduce this issue, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were a small number of units that had issues.
I really wish new people coming into printing would just build as designed and upgrade afterwards, you learn a great deal from changing parts and seeing the effects, I understand the desire to want to have the best from the get go, but you're cheering yourself out of a lot of learning.

I have personally always considered ABS to be the easiest plastic to get a good part out of, as long as the part doesn't have a lot of surface area in contact with the build plate. Set the temperature to 240, build plate to 85 or more, set some minimal retraction and print. It doesn't string much, as long as your hit enough it doesn't very much matter what temperature, and it doesn't have a thixotropic state to screw you on the retracts.

PLA Is fine if you know why it jams and are willing to tune the settings for it, the biggest issues are with temperature and retraction. You have to be willing to start with a stringy mess, get everything right with no retraction, dial the temperature down and increase the cooling, then experiment with retraction. You have to do the experiments to get it really good.

I have never been able to tune the stringiness out of PET, and I found prints tended to regularly fail without a geared extruder.

I've also seen more bad rolls of PLA than every other filament combined, not necessarily unprintable, but with enough variation, that getting a good print out of them is an excercise in frustration. I think a lot of this has to do with difficulty in the manufacturing process, I've had rolls of PLA where most of it will print at 165C, but every now nd then there is a section that requires >200C to print it reliably, and I think it's all about uneven mixing of the pigment.

[Windshadow]

did you ever try to use the provided SeeMeCNC hotted kit? I received the e3dv6 kit as an xmas gift when I was build my printer and I had planed to build and use it rather than the stock hot end.
reading your problems convinced me to start with he stock hot end and learn what i am doing before i try the e3d kit to try some nylon ...

while I have not been problem free ( I am still restricted to about a 5 or 6" circle in the centre of the build space, and my ABS pieces have been better than the PLA I tried, if i print in that center part of the build plat things have been going well) I think saving the learning of the e3d for later has simplified my learning process.