Why not .4mm nozzle?

[Nazulle]

I was looking at 3D Hubs earlier today and i noticed that the in the cons of the Rostock Max v2 it says how the printer "lacks precision." Why is this?
I was thinking that maybe it could be because all Rostocks come standard with a .5mm nozzle and I was wondering if that could be it?
As in maybe the increased nozzle size does not allow prints to appear as detailed or precise as a cartesian printer that comes standard with a .4mm nozzle (such as the Prusa i3) which is praised for its ultimaker-like accuracy and quality.

I noticed that the prints I produce don't come out as accurate as I'd had gotten used to after using my friend's makerbot for a time before I bought the Max. But I still think that this is because I have not fully calibrated every single part of the printer, considering I see a lot of rippling in the straight edges of prints and I can only print at 27mm/s.

So i was thinking that maybe if i bought a .4mm nozzle for the printer, maybe my prints would turn out better than they are now? I really want precise and perfect prints and I can't seem to get that right now.

Thanks

[Xenocrates]

There are a few reasons a quick review might say that. Firstly, the nozzle size as you noted. The fairly standard E3D style nozzle should fit in the HE280, and there are .4 nozzles available from Seeme for it as well. So you could go down to .2 for nozzle size if you wanted to.

Secondly, the precision achievable by the drivetrain is not exactly equal over the entire bed. The center is most precise, while the edges gradually drop off in precision (Admittedly, they do pretty well for minimizing error, but say, the Orion, would have much more issues working a Rmax style bed if you could even fit one in it.) The closer you are to the tower radius, the less it has to work with on at least one axis of travel. It's inherent to the mechanism.

Thirdly, the Rambo and Repetier are not very powerful computationally. In order to handle the kinematics and step generation, and work at a relatively high rate of speed, it has to segment paths somewhat. This causes your rippling you're observing (Note that the deviation from specification is very minor and it's more noticeable visually than with a straight edge due to the way plastics behave). Other boards with other firmwares, most especially the Duet WIFI (and to a very slightly lesser extent, the original Duet board), have segment-less kinematics for delta printers, as well as much more powerful CPU's and the Smoothie 2 pro promises a massive improvement due to dedicated co-processors. However, these require changing the controller boards and firmware, as well as often the wiring harness. Eventually, we may see Ultimachine release the much rumored Archim (a name I've heard thrown around but never confirmed for a 32 bit RAMBO successor), which may well be a drop in replacement. These improve performance in a number of ways, but are expensive changes to make.

Fourthly, Deltas are MUCH harder to calibrate completely, and most people are not going to take the time to perfectly dial in their printer before reviewing it, especially when it takes so very much time. This has some negative effect on the reputation for precision (Although it also makes people who can achieve perfect prints every time like Mike look like wizards).

[Nazulle]

Xenocrates,

So say if i wanted to get rid of these ripples that I have on all of my prints, would you suggest that I wait for this "Archim" board to replace my Rambo? (or get a Duet Wifi... maybe?) The ripples only appear on certain layer heights, and considering I am going to start selling prints soon, I find this to be quite a bad way to start. (check picture)

I have also been getting a lot of uneven layers but again, I think this is might be from not calibrating my printer well (though i'm not very sure how i'd be able to fix this)

[Xenocrates]

Looking at the surface, that looks to be the processor artifacting (The faint vertical lines), in addition to either a series of travel speed changes or heated bed over/undershoots. It could also be that the hotend is having some difficulty getting to the ideal temperature (Likely due to a goofy PID, as the autotune is far from perfect).

I would go for a Duet of some stripe myself (I did in fact). This will eliminate the vertical banding, but that's not the worst artifact. I would use a host that does temperature graphing and determine if any of the horizontal bands line up with variations in bed/hotend temperature. I might also build an enclosure for the printer, in order to keep drafts from opening and closing doors or AC from affecting prints.

There is also a possibility of resonance. This would occur at certain speeds while printing and could cause any number of artifacts. If the G-code for those models shows a similar travel speed for the ranges where the bands occur, try changing the speed around to see if they move.

[Nazulle]

I would go for a Duet of some stripe myself (I did in fact). This will eliminate the vertical banding, but that's not the worst artifact. I would use a host that does temperature graphing and determine if any of the horizontal bands line up with variations in bed/hotend temperature. I might also build an enclosure for the printer, in order to keep drafts from opening and closing doors or AC from affecting prints.

What duet board did you get might I ask? And do you know of an hosts that have temperature graphing? I have been wanting to try Cura instead of mattercontrol/repetier to see how I like it, once I get my printer to stop smashing onto the build plate (went to support for this on friday so I'm hoping for an answer by monday) Also, considering my printer is in the garage 24/7 I dont really have a problem with drafts due to the hot florida weather, but I have been trying to print an enclosure for quite some time now. Unfortunately my my hot end keeps rising as it gets between the towers when printing so I can't get anything (enclosure related) big printed until I find a way to resolve that issue.

There is also a possibility of resonance. This would occur at certain speeds while printing and could cause any number of artifacts. If the G-code for those models shows a similar travel speed for the ranges where the bands occur, try changing the speed around to see if they move.

So could it be that I am printing at abnormally slow speeds compared to other Rmax owners, this could be occuring..?

[mhackney]

I agree with everything Xenocrates said. However, you did not list your material and print speeds. It looks like you have layer shift artifacts that could be the result of printing too fast or mechanical slop/backlash. Slow down and see how it affects your prints. Better yet, read the posts linked in my signature to learn even more.

And as the forum's UDS ("Unofficial Duet Spokesperson") let me make a few comments about Duet:

The primary distinction between the v0.8.5 and Duet Wifi for our purposes is Wifi. It adds $40 to the cost. You can use a 0.8.5 with a $20 Wifi bridge (its on my blog) but it is not as clean or as fast as the native Duet Wifi. There is also a .6 board available from China and the UK. I have 1 of each of these and they work perfectly fine. I recommend the UK one though as the external voltage regulator on the Chinese one can create confusion on how to wire. Both of these are under $77US (plus shipping) and you can use the same Wifi bridge to get Wifi.

If money is a concern, get the .6 version and Wifi bridge if you want wifi connectivity. You can also connect via ethernet or USB but you DO WANT to use ethernet or wifi, it is much much faster and the built in Duet Web Control is extremely nice.

If money is not a major concern and/or you think you might want to upgrade to 3 or more extruders or other fancy stuff in the future, go with the Duet Wifi. It is shear elegance in a 3D printer controller. The DWC does temperature graphing and a lot of other things. Scroll down to Electronics on my blog post: http://sublimelayers.blogspot.com/search?q=duet

A couple of other significant comments: I've used all of the major controllers and firmware available today. By far, the Duet/RepRapFirmware (aka dc42) has the best user experience for everything from configuration to firmware upgrades to actually printing. The configuration is all done in simple configuration files (no EEPROM) and can actually be edited in the Web interface - the way life was meant to be. This feature alone is awesome but it gets better, you can also upgrade the firmware via the web interface! No more Arduino IDEs, compiling and uploading hassles, no more pulling out the SD card and hoping you don't forget to unmount it before printing nonsense. The firmware is provided as a binary ready to upload and go. It is pure elegance. These capabilities provide for the most user friendly and seamless management of your printer. But it gets better! Printing. It is soooo simple to upload a gcode file (and fast) via the web interface. You can control all features of your printer, print and monitor (including the temperature plot) etc. OctoPrint and AstroPrint pale in comparison.

There are many more features like macros that add to the experience. My second piece of advice is, if money is an issue, don't worry about the PanelDue. With the web interface and wifi you don't need it. I rarely use mine. It has some great features like touch screen and color but it isn't at all needed with the built in DWC.

Oh, and invest in either the IR probe or FSRs or the accelerometer probe I'll have available early next year and experience the joy of the dc42 auto calibration. It is still the best autocalibration available. And I have it on good authority that delta grid leveling is scheduled for the next (1.17) release hopefully before the end of the year. Once that is available, it really is game over for all the other firmware and controllers in my opinion unless you are buying something else for economic reasons. But if you do the math and figure out how many hours of frustration and inferior results you'll get with other solutions, the Duet/dc42 combo is a bargain.

[Xenocrates]

I got the .8.5, which was the newest at the time. The Duet wifi has much better stepper drivers, and if you're not planning on running ethernet to it, will be much more convenient. If I were planning to upgrade again, I would likely wait for the updated Ethernet version sometime in the next year, as WIFI doesn't agree with the enviroment I keep my printer in (Metal skinned barn, lots of other tools to generate plenty of EMI to drown out WIFI). Other little tweaks between the Duet .8.5 and Wifi including support for an external SD card (I've not seen it in use yet, but it is being worked on), and daughterboards for alternative temperature sensors which are plug and play, a faster processor (It isn't too noticeable yet but gives headroom for later advances), and a co-processor to handle the Web-host.

As far as I know, Octo/Astroprint, and Repetier host do temperature graphing. Duet Web control does as well, but is dependent on a Duet board to use.

Resonance is typically more likely to arise at higher speeds rather than lower speeds. However, if you print 2 objects in a row with the same G code (I suggest off an SD card to eliminate slicer/communication weirdness), and the artifacts remain in the same relative position between them, rather than being somewhat randomly distributed, it would point towards resonance.

[mhackney]

Yes, yes, yes, the Wifi's stepper drivers are awesome, I forgot to mention that. You will be amazed at how much quieter they are. And the Wifi DOES NOT have a normal ethernet port.

[dc42]

...Other little tweaks between the Duet .8.5 and Wifi including support for an external SD card (I've not seen it in use yet, but it is being worked on), and daughterboards for alternative temperature sensors which are plug and play, a faster processor (It isn't too noticeable yet but gives headroom for later advances), and a co-processor to handle the Web-host.

The external SD card has been supported on the Duet WiFi for a couple of months now. In theory you could add one to the Duet 0.8.5 too, but I haven't tested it or documented the wiring. The latest version of PanelDue has an extra socket, to make it easier to connect the SD card socket on the display to a Duet WiFi with a ribbon cable.

[Nazulle]

For me, I had gotten used to printing with an SD card considering my printer is in the other side of the house from where I am at so I'm not so fond of moving my computer back and forth everyday, and honestly I don't know how good the wifi function would work for me due to the location of the printer. So, SD card printing seemed like the way to go. how would I go about continuing this form of printing if I were to buy a Duet Wifi board to replace my Rambo? Judging from what you guys said, I don't think I would be able to just plug in the LCD screen with its sd card slot onto the printer like I would do with a Rambo.

[IMBoring25]

Sure, you can sneakernet the SD card if you really have to. I'd have the machine off when inserting and removing it.

[Xenocrates]

For me, I had gotten used to printing with an SD card considering my printer is in the other side of the house from where I am at so I'm not so fond of moving my computer back and forth everyday, and honestly I don't know how good the wifi function would work for me due to the location of the printer. So, SD card printing seemed like the way to go. how would I go about continuing this form of printing if I were to buy a Duet Wifi board to replace my Rambo? Judging from what you guys said, I don't think I would be able to just plug in the LCD screen with its sd card slot onto the printer like I would do with a Rambo.

What would have to be done is connecting the X5 socket from the Paneldue (new versions only) to the Duet Wifi connector labeled SD Conn. Simple as that. Then the SD card slot on the Paneldue is accessible by the Duet, making everything nice and easy.

[Nazulle]

What would have to be done is connecting the X5 socket from the Paneldue (new versions only) to the Duet Wifi connector labeled SD Conn. Then the SD card slot on the Paneldue is accessible by the Duet, making everything nice and easy.

So I would not be able to use the LCD controller that came with the Rmax with the Duet Wifi? Are there any cheaper options for screens w/ an sd card or is the Paneldue my only option?

[Xenocrates]

What would have to be done is connecting the X5 socket from the Paneldue (new versions only) to the Duet Wifi connector labeled SD Conn. Then the SD card slot on the Paneldue is accessible by the Duet, making everything nice and easy.

So I would not be able to use the LCD controller that came with the Rmax with the Duet Wifi? Are there any cheaper options for screens w/ an sd card or is the Paneldue my only option?

It's unlikely. That sort of LCD is designed for 5V logic support, and might do un-fun things to the Duet's processor. However, there are lower cost options that are hardware supported (Such as the Panelone from Think3DPrint3D). These lack firmware support right now though, as the difference in interface method is pretty big. On the other hand, you could just buy an SD card socket, and since I believe it's a generic SPI connection at work here, wire it up pretty simply (See products here and here). I would check with DC42 first though, as he is the main firmware developer, and may well have firmware support for the LCD almost ready to go.

[Nazulle]

Nah I'd rather stay on the safe side and get a PanelDue then. I don't want to damage a $170 board What did you do with the rambo that came with your kit? Did you end up selling it? Thats what I think I might do so the cost of the Duet wouldnt be as steep...

This is just so i can better understand the situation so sorry if it sounds stupid... Why is it important for a board to have good stepper drivers? Wouldn't the stepper motors work the same regardless of the boards capabilities?

[dc42]

For me, I had gotten used to printing with an SD card considering my printer is in the other side of the house from where I am at so I'm not so fond of moving my computer back and forth everyday, and honestly I don't know how good the wifi function would work for me due to the location of the printer. So, SD card printing seemed like the way to go. how would I go about continuing this form of printing if I were to buy a Duet Wifi board to replace my Rambo? Judging from what you guys said, I don't think I would be able to just plug in the LCD screen with its sd card slot onto the printer like I would do with a Rambo.

With a Duet WiFi you would not need to move an SD card between the computer and the printer, because you can upload the file to the built-in SD card through the web interface, provided that the printer is turned on or at least provided with 5V power.

[DeltaCon]

There is also a .6 board available from China and the UK. I have 1 of each of these and they work perfectly fine. I recommend the UK one though as the external voltage regulator on the Chinese one can create confusion on how to wire. Both of these are under $77US (plus shipping) and you can use the same Wifi bridge to get Wifi.

Hmm, I went looking. Replikeo is honest about the version they sell. Emaker "conveniently leaves out" information of it being an older version. (And I hate that...). But the offer looks interesting. Will future updates of DC42 formware run on these boards for the not too near future? I am not planning for multiple extruders and thing like that (at least not before upgrading to a metal frame, my melamine is falling apart...) and wifi is really not my concern. So this could be an interesting option. Thanks for pointing to it.

EDIT: I also found https://www.think3dprint3d.com/Duet06 to be 8 pounds cheaper, and they still have stock too... (AND are honest about the version...)

[Xenocrates]

Nah I'd rather stay on the safe side and get a PanelDue then. I don't want to damage a $170 board What did you do with the rambo that came with your kit? Did you end up selling it? Thats what I think I might do so the cost of the Duet wouldnt be as steep...

This is just so i can better understand the situation so sorry if it sounds stupid... Why is it important for a board to have good stepper drivers? Wouldn't the stepper motors work the same regardless of the boards capabilities?

My rambo was flaky at the time, and in order to get it working again I had to remove the reset switch, so I wasn't about to try selling it. As for the drivers, the stepper motors are actually very much affected by the drivers. Microstepping is a major thing for them, as naturally on the Rostock the steps/MM would be ~5. The difference is made up with microstepping (16x in the case of the Rambo). The Duet wifi has both higher current (And thus higher torque), and higher microstepping (Up to 256x) drivers, and also is capable of reducing the noise dramatically. There are some other features to the drivers as well, but those don't all work with the current state of the firmware. Eventually, it should be able to do stall detection, so that it would be able to determine when it would need to rehome the printer to get back to an accurate reference (Would not help with belt slipping though).

Deltacon, Think3DPrint3D is one of the Duet developers, so especially if they are cheaper than Emaker, I would buy from them.

[mhackney]

think3dprint3d are actually the designers and manufacturers of these Duet boards and David is now working with them on the WIfi and upcoming projects. I didn't realize they still offered the v0.6 board. Since they do, I'd also buy from them directly to support their work.

[DeltaCon]

Think3DPrint3D is one of the Duet developers, so especially if they are cheaper than Emaker, I would buy from them.

think3dprint3d are actually the designers and manufacturers of these Duet boards and David is now working with them on the WIfi and upcoming projects. I didn't realize they still offered the v0.6 board. Since they do, I'd also buy from them directly to support their work.

My thoughts exactly!

But I would hate it if the 0.6 board would not be able to run updated firmware anymore. Would that be a plausible scenario?
Also I suppose the frs calibration routine is no problem on these older boards?

[mhackney]

I have 4 .6 boards all running FSR sensors for auto cal. That's how I got my introduction to Duet and dc42 actually. It works fine.

I have no reason to believe the firmware for the .6 boards would be deprecated any time soon. There are lots of them in use out there. And it is open source so even if something silly like that happened, if there is a need others can pick it up. The .6 and .8.5 boards are supported in the same binary release so that also strengthens the argument that you have nothing to fear.

[Nazulle]

For what reason would someone buy a .6 board compared to the other 2 boards that are more recent? Is it because of cost?

[dc42]

I have no reason to believe the firmware for the .6 boards would be deprecated any time soon. There are lots of them in use out there. And it is open source so even if something silly like that happened, if there is a need others can pick it up. The .6 and .8.5 boards are supported in the same binary release so that also strengthens the argument that you have nothing to fear.

I confirm that I intend to support the Duet 0.6 for as long as I support the Duet 0.8.5. One of the machines I test firmware on uses a Duet 0.6.

In future, new features that require large amounts of RAM may be restricted to the Duet WiFi only, or cut down on the wired Duet. Also we will eventually move to RTOS on the Duet WiFi, at which time we will have to split the source files so the wired Duet won't automatically get all the new features that we implement on the Duet WiFi and its successors.

[mhackney]

Thanks for the info David.

This is just one more reason why Duet and dc42 are excellent. How many open source firmware and hardware developers participate in "foreign" forums?

[Nazulle]

Do you guys mind if I see a few prints that you have been producing with this new board? I am curious to see whether the quality increase is worth the money..