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Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:03 pm
by Tonkabot
I thought it was a head-up display gunsight, and might have little lights that change with airspeed or AOA or something.

Isn't the plane an ME-109 ?

What goes in the tank-like thing on the floor between the pilots legs? surely not fuel?

[img]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a378/ ... C07646.jpg[/img]

Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:37 pm
by geneb
The photo is for a Bf-109G of some kind. 6 maybe? Anyway, the gunsight is a very simple device - it's even before the advent of the lead-computing sights that were starting to show up very late in the war and in Korea. In the G and K models, the gunsight was attached to a post that would allow the pilot to rotate the gunsight to the right in order to get it out of his way while not in use. I _think_ the way it works is that you pull it straight out and then rotate left - when stowing it a spring may pull it under the arc of the instrument panel. I've never actually been able to touch one to find out. :)

That big tube is actually the breech cover for the MK108 30mm cannon that was mounted in the nose. The barrel sits between the inverted "V" of the cylinders in the DB601 engine and fires through the center of the prop. The Bf109 also had a pair of MG131, 13mm machine guns mounted on top of the engine, to either side of the center line.

Where did you get that photo? There's something hinkey about the canopy hinge that's visible and I'd like a larger version. :)

g.

Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:01 pm
by Tonkabot
Google images showed a bunch of pictures, and I picked one that looked like your cockpit panel.

Tracing it back it was from this web site that has more photos of the same plane that might help you.
I also was noticing that there doesn't appear to be a rubber grommet around the canopy, and I was imagining that a massive amount of air would blow into the cockpit throw any canopy that has a less than perfect seal. ( I get to the point that I imagine it's 1944 and I am taking off in the dead of winter in my leather flight suit freezing my fingers and balls off) ( It's going to be like -15F tonight here in Minnesota)

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.o ... hp?t=24383

What is the difference between a Bf109 and an Me109? Different manufacture of the same plane?

Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:14 pm
by geneb
Same plane, different label. It's actually referred to interchangeably as "Bf" AND "Me" in Luftwaffe documentation of the time. The "correct" label is Bf109 - the aircraft was originally built by Bayerische Flugzeugwerke and the RLM designated it "Bf109" in 1935. In 1938 Willy Messerschmitt bought Bayerische Flugzeugwerke and from that point on all aircraft designs were prefixed by "Me" by the RLM when purchased from Messerschmitt A.G. (and yes, I had to look that up! *laughs*)

The photo you linked has what I think is a model with real parts attached. The big thing that caught my eye is the way the canopy is hinged. It looks like a flat hinge, but every "real" canopy is hinged fore and aft using a pin that would engage the windscreen base in front and the cockpit frame in the back. You could dump the canopy by grabbing a handle that released the pins on that side.

The cockpit was unpressurized until the G model was released. As far as I know, the pilots wore electrically heated flight suits.
Another thing that stands out to me about the airframe in the photo is the glass. I noticed that the rudder configuration is a VERY late model G. The problem is that the data plate stuck on the side (in the wrong place!) _appears_ to read "109G16". There was never a G16. There was a G6, but it used the balanced rudder of the earlier variants. (god, I am SUCH an airplane nerd...) There's also no serial number stamped on the plate. I stared for a while and figured it out - it's 109G14, which would match the rudder configuration. However... *coughs* The canopy is wrong for the G14. :D I think they may have just grabbed bits from an earlier G or E model and threw them on. The G14 had a different canopy called a "Erla Haube" that gave a much better view - the only framing was along the top and bottom - nothing in the middle. The windscreen and canopy glass are single-glazed. If either had been installed in a pressurized variant, they would've been double-glazed with hydroscopic elements in the bottom right corner of the glass assemblies - it keeps the glass from fogging up between the panes.

TIL talking about the Bf109 makes me ramble nearly incoherently. :D

g.

Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:31 pm
by Eric
Even the Erla Haube canopy was pinned fore and aft. The matching latch-pin hole on the left side is not there. I also don't see corner bracing on the forward canopy frame, and as you said the canopy itself doesn't look right. Has to be a less-than-accurate creation for display purposes only.

Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:32 pm
by Eaglezsoar
Your knowledge of planes is amazing!

Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:57 pm
by Eric
Geneb's the true nut. I just had a lot of exposure as a kid via my father and his friends, combined with a good memory. Soloed when I was 14, but I didn't keep it up once I left home. The experience did come in handy when I was involved with making MD-11 cockpit procedure trainers for Delta 25 years ago. I got to play with some of their other training toys at Delta, like the window escape exits and even a few minutes in the full-motion simulator.

Re: Better tune up those guessers!

Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:49 am
by geneb
Apparently the aircraft is was destined to be re-hung in the ceiling at some point. It galls me that a museum would put something on display that was apparently half-assed just to have a display.

I about flipped a table when I found out the Bf-109E4 that the Boeing MoF got from the Champlin(sp) collection was going to be stuck on a post. It was a flying airframe! I saw it a few years later. The display is nice and whoever decided to stick flying airplane on a post should've been fired and then skinned, dipped in salt and slow-roasted over an angry volcano.

g.