PEI print bed surface experiments

[626Pilot]

I have had pretty good luck with a speed of 30, prime/suck of 3, and a wipe of 5. That sounds filthy, but it has reduced blobbing and almost totally eliminated stringing. 30mm/sec retracts really surprised me. I thought it was better to go as fast as possible, but apparently it isn't.

[dunginhawk]

So I want to revive this a little bit...
I am desperately seeking something that can hold corners on abs on a larger print... I have an 8 x 6 on the bed that the corners are always coming up . its MUCH better when I use hairspray, but I would love for this to be the answer....
Thoughts?

[mhackney]

Do this - measure the temperature across the surface of your bed. I recently helped a friend having peal off issues with large prints. I had him try everything that I thought of and then realized that a uniform bed temperature is critical for large ABS (and PLA) parts. If your surface temp varies by more than 5°C or so, install a heat dissipator (or a better one if you have one).

Otherwise, the matte side of PEI at 80C and lightly sanded before each print WILL stick ABS like wonders. I've printed 12" diameter flying disks (aka Frisbee™) with no problems.

[dunginhawk]

I don't care if its matte or polished side as long as it sticks (for this job anyway)
I do prefer the shiny look, but like I said, if it sticks, it sticks
I will measure the temps later tomorrow when I get home... and yes, I presume you are right about the dissipation.
Lightly sand with 1000-1500 grit?
Thanks

[dunginhawk]

Just placed my order, it will be here tomorrow... 20 bucks to solve this issue... count me in... although I wish we didn't have to sand in between prints haha.

[mhackney]

1500 is good. You don't have to sand between every print and it depends on how clean the surface is. I wipe with an alcohol pad most of the time and I'm good to go. But if things start to lift, sand LIGHTLY.

[JFettig]

So far I'm having huge success with custom rafts, I build a .875mm thick raft with a 150% layer height and 80% infill below the part starting the first part layer at 1mm, its a little difficult getting the raft off. I build the top 2 layers perpendicular to the bottom layer of the raft then the first part layer somewhere in between. The raft comes right off the build plate, no warping so far. Only built 3 parts so far on it. I'm sure regular rafts also work but with a large part, I prefer a big hole in the center of the raft so I don't waste a ton of material.

I haven't sanded my PEI yet and I'm on the smooth side.

Jon

[mhackney]

I've been printing on the smooth side for a few weeks now too. No sanding, just cleaning with alcohol when needed. It sticks quite well, just not quite as good as the matt side, but quite respectable.

[dunginhawk]

I need something that is consistent and doesn't work "pretty well". . so I definitely will do the matte side...
If the smooth side was 99.9% good with no peeling in the corners, I may try it.
Would it be worth trying 95 degrees with ABS on that smooth side????

As far as the raft goes... the parts I'm needing to print aren't being sanded, and its my worry a raft would leave too much of the rough underside, or need sanding....

I'm excited to get this tomorrow... ill post my results.

[JFettig]

I've tried 95 and 100 degrees on ABS. I had good success with sticking but were all near impossible to remove. Not a large enough sample size to give success rates.

On a raft the bottom layer isn't 100% infilled, if it was you wouldn't get it off the raft.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/UqTL3qP.jpg[/img]

One thing I noticed printing directly on glass or PEI is the bottom 3 layers are bigger than the rest(bottom the biggest), another reason my raft is 3 layers thick, I get straight walls with no sharp edge on the bottom.

[nitewatchman]

One thing that I have learned (with assistance) is that the first layer must be uniform and not too thin and deeply squished into the PEI. When I have the nozzle too low it is impossible to remove the print with damage or actually cutting it off with a chisel and acetone.

There seems to be a sweet spot between where the first layer doesn't stick and where the first layer is so low it barely prints. I normally run 0.1mm for layers and 0.2mm first layer.

[mhackney]

Tip #4 Nail the First Layer

[dunginhawk]

So that's good to know.. I don't mind doing a raft on the print as long as it comes off clean and I'm happy with it... I can certainly do that...
Do you have a list of raft settings you prefer? Above and beyond the raft info you previously gave?
My first layers are usually pretty good, but I run 200% extrusion width and get them pretty stuck

[JFettig]

The stock rafts with previous versions of S3D worked with and without the base layers, with the base layers and they are a little easier to remove and I'd imagine more reliable but I never had any issues with either method except for removal. Right now I'm drawing up my own rafts and doing a single border with 80% infill on all 3 layers, 1st layer at 150% extrusion height and 150% extrusion width, I have also tried 200% extrusion width, both work for me so far. Both come off of PEI very easily. I think the gaps in the infill reduce the stresses and maybe that is why its working so well for me.

Gap between the raft and part is .125mm as of right now - only because I can't cheat S3D into making it more or less, previous version of S3d would allow you to adjust that more or less, current version has "improvements" to the raft which makes it not stick at all(more than 1 layer away from the raft). .125mm is 50% of my extrusion height if you're running different heights. I wrote them a nice long e-mail on why this doesn't work so hopefully they'll fix it.


Jon

[dunginhawk]

so how are you guys cutting, and adhering your PEI to the glass? or are you just laying it on top and clipping it with the stock clips?

I assume you are cutting it though? mine arrived today

[nitewatchman]

I attached mine to the Borosilicate glass plate with 3M tape, I used the 12"x12" square sheets.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Y7 ... UTF8&psc=1

To cut it, after attaching to the glass, I scored the PEI around the glass deeply using a scriber and snapped off the corners.

[mhackney]

I did a similar thing. I adhered a 12" square with 3M tape. Then I used my bandsaw, glass side down (covered with masking tape for protection) and trimmed close to the glass. Worked like a charm.

[dunginhawk]

poo.. wish i would have thought about that yesterday.. now i have to wait for saturday to have it delivered lol... oh well.
thanks gents... anxious to get printing with it

[3D-Print]

Awesome thread!

I wanted to make sure I'm pulling this all together correctly. In summary, adding PEI is as follows... Correct?

PEI from amazon is: PEI (Polyetherimide) Sheet, Opaque Natural, Standard Tolerance, ASTM D5205 PEI0113, 0.03" Thickness, 12" Width, 12" Length

1) Triple-washed the glass, after scraping it down with a razor blade, a cleaner, then Windex, then isopropyl alcohol
2) Place the 3M tape
a. TapeCase 468MP
b. TapeCase 468MP 12in X 12in
3) Isopropyl EtoH clean the PEI, let it dry, then laid it down with a minimum of curling of the plastic.
4) Weight it down

Is that correct?

Thanks,

Dan

[mhackney]

You got it. You will see lots of little bubbles, etc. They are inconsequential, well below anything you can measure.

[3D-Print]

Thank you, I just order it all!!!

[nitewatchman]

Awesome thread!

I wanted to make sure I'm pulling this all together correctly. In summary, adding PEI is as follows... Correct?

PEI from amazon is: PEI (Polyetherimide) Sheet, Opaque Natural, Standard Tolerance, ASTM D5205 PEI0113, 0.03" Thickness, 12" Width, 12" Length

1) Triple-washed the glass, after scraping it down with a razor blade, a cleaner, then Windex, then isopropyl alcohol
2) Place the 3M tape
a. TapeCase 468MP
b. TapeCase 468MP 12in X 12in
3) Isopropyl EtoH clean the PEI, let it dry, then laid it down with a minimum of curling of the plastic.
4) Weight it down

Is that correct?

Thanks,

Dan

I do this a little differently.

After doing the cleanliness next to Godliness thing, I apply the tape to the PEI first.

I pull the first inch of the cover sheet loose from the first side of the tape and carefully fold it back. This leaves an inch of sticky exposed across the full width of the tape (1"x12"). I position this carefully on the PEI sheet and stick it down. I then lift the free end of the tape sheet, grab the folded over cover sheet and start peeling it off while sticking the tape down to the PEI. This allows you to work the sticky edge down progressively and not get big bubbles or wrinkles. If the tape ever touches itself just get another piece because things will not improve with effort. After making it all the way across, I have a sheet of PEI with the tape on one side. Decided what side you want up before you start this drill, VERY IMPORTANT.

I repeat the operation to attach the PEI/Tape assemble to the glass. Again folding back about an inch of the second side cover sheet and I carefully align the PEI to the glass without letting the sticky touch. When it is in position push the sticky edge down and squeegee the tape down for the full inch width. Now the PEI can be flexed up off of the glass and the cover sheet again pulled from between the PEI and the glass by tugging on the loose end of the folded over cover sheet. Again work the PEI down onto the glass as the cover sheet is peeled to minimize bubbles. After making it all the way across you should have a tightly stuck PEI sheet with no large bubbles (lots of tiny ones) and NO TAPE WRINKLES.

I then lay the PEI/tape/glass sandwich PEI side down on a towel and using a sharp machinist scribe, score around the PEI using the glass edge as a guide. I really bear down on this and score about half way through (takes several passes), then break the corners off by flexing the PEI away from the glass side. Any sharp corners, edges or rough spots are cleaned up using a file. The plate is now ready to go, no cure time, weighting down time - just clip it, heat it, print it.

I have done four glass plates so far and used five tape sheets. It is really not as bad as it sounds and takes less time to do than it took me to type this diatribe.

Good Luck! The results are worth the effort.

[mhackney]

I took this photo a few minutes ago for a gent on another thread. But I realized you can see the PEI surface quite clearly (click the photo to see the high res version).

[3D-Print]

Thanks for the tips on how to place the tape, PEI and glass. That was nice and clear and makes sense. Will let you know how it goes.

Love all the pics and help. Is great to benefit from all your efforts (year long). Much appreciated.

Dan

[techstorage]

I am running out of glue sticks, so time to install this update.

I have a thin copper sheet .032", ULTEM PEI sheet .003" and 3m tape to make the sandwich on my Max v2 with an extra glass plate I purchased from Seemecnc.
...

I installed the PEI on my Glass Plate and added the copper plate. Installed my E3Dv6 and re-calibrated the printer. The PEI print bed surface is great!

After reading mhachney's other post about starting on the first layer over and over till you get it right, it is very helpful, also. I can take up the first or first and 1/2 the second layers to see how things are going and I don't have to reapply glue or ABS Juice.