Welcome to the SeeMeCNC Community

Hi, folks,

Have been lurking around the active 3D printer community in the SF Bay Area for several years. Not enough priority (or enough time to jump in. Week or so ago, my grandson visited from southern California and we spent several days 3D printing on a friends Makerbot Replicator 2 and Mini. Now he's got the bug and I do, too He's a budding scientist/engineer, so buying a printer (or even just building a kit) won't do, so in the Steve Jobs fashion "The journey is its own reward.", we want to design, analyze, and build a printer (definitely one faster than the Makerbots!) from scratch.

For more on my background, see my intro-to-the-forum posting: http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10466

We've decided to start with the Rostock Max V2 (or later) as a starting point. I have a bunch of parts and materials already (e.g., my own stepper driver, some surplus high-quality linear rails from SLAC surplus, etc.) and the skills to design and analyze the components and evolving design, so expect to make a derivative. Expect to report on progress here.

But now, would love to draw on the accumulated wisdom of this group concerning our starting point and how we might proceed. Here are a bunch of specific questions:

• Starting point: I've downloaded all the available info on the Rostock Max V2 (Thanks, SeeMeCNC, etc.). For example, grabbed the Solidworks CAD file and imported them to Autodesk's Fusion360 system (cloud-based, built for group collaboration, free for non-profit use, check it out). Is this the latest published starting point (especially for the CAD files), or is there something later I should be using?
• Mechanical -- Case: No problem here. Expect to use the high-quality rails (aluminum "T" extrusion, plus hardened steel 1/2" dia. rod) for the uprights.
• Mechanical -- Platform: Heated? (Expect to do mainly PLA, but allow for other materials.) Material? (e.g., commercial stuff I saw at the Bay Area Maker Faire last month?)
• Moving parts -- Skates: Expect to design to fit our rails, but what size roller bearings? Have ordered some smaller ones from Banggood ("China, Inc.") to experiment with. Goal: reduce moving mass. Re noise: do I need to coat bearings or put them in a plastic/rubber roller?
• Moving parts -- Rods and balljoints: Expect to use carbon fiber tubing and metal balljoints (ordered samples from Banggood). Specific advice?
• Moving parts -- Belts and pulleys: Same as current Rostock?
• Moving parts -- Flying platform: Designed to fit selected hot-end, but would like to make it adaptable to other attachments (e.g., use the printer as a pick-and-place system with vacuum pickup head for PCB assembly).
• Moving parts -- Steppers: Same as current Rostock, or larger to allow faster acceleration and movement?
• Moving parts -- Extruder: Would like to use case-mounted extruder and Bowden tube to minimize moving mass. But this may make fiber control too difficult. A floating extruder hanging above the hot-end with a short Bowden tube may be a good alternative. Comments? Given all that, what's the "best" extruder design to use (given that I can machine extruder shafts with sharp 60º grooves and peaks on my mill)?
• Thermal -- Platform: Heated? How? Material?
• Thermal -- Hot-end: Probably the biggest unknown. What's the current advice on this? Should I machine my own from specialized materials (high-temp plastics, SS, etc.) or order it complete from "China, Inc."? Or start with the latter and evolve?
• Electronics -- Power supply: No problem. Will build into base.
• Electronics -- Controller board: The RAMBo board looks like a nice solution, but not for me. Too expensive and not modular. Looks like the best solution is to break down the board into more cost-efficient and flexible pieces:
• Stock Arduino Mega2560 or compatible (less than $10 from Banggood), and can be upgraded at any time.
• Either one board or a board with daughter cards for stepper drivers (already have) and heater drivers.
• Misc. cables and connectors.
• Electronics -- LCD: Compatible with Arduino and firmware (below)?
• Electronics -- SD reader: Compatible with Arduino and firmware (below)?
• Firmware: Is Marlin the best firmware to use for this kind of printer? (Already have downloaded the Arduino IDE, Marlin repo, and MarlinDev repo.) If so, I can take my firmware issues to the Marlin group....

Lots of questions Sorry. Hope they and the forthcoming replies serve to crystalize thinking in the group.

TIA,

Mike

Very ambitious for a first foray. I like the idea. So let's get down to the meat and bones of it right away.

mikew67 wrote:Hi, folks,
But now, would love to draw on the accumulated wisdom of this group concerning our starting point and how we might proceed. Here are a bunch of specific questions:

• Starting point: I've downloaded all the available info on the Rostock Max V2 (Thanks, SeeMeCNC, etc.). For example, grabbed the Solidworks CAD file and imported them to Autodesk's Fusion360 system (cloud-based, built for group collaboration, free for non-profit use, check it out). Is this the latest published starting point (especially for the CAD files), or is there something later I should be using?

As far as I am aware, the Github is current to the last public revision. There is a V3 in the works, but that is not available nor final yet, and so the Github hasn't got it.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Mechanical -- Case: No problem here. Expect to use the high-quality rails (aluminum "T" extrusion, plus hardened steel 1/2" dia. rod) for the uprights.

For reference, is it planned to be all metal (Kossel mini with machined corners, Flux), metal frame with other skin (as before, but with perhaps a lasercut body around it), metal sub-frame for kinematic elements with a different main body( IE the towers are connected together with metal, but all the other parts are attached to something else), or other material with metal towers(Max V2).

All things being equal as far as quality, the all metal designs are best for accuracy mechanically, the kinematic frame is sorta in-between (I don't like it as an idea because there's not much room for structural redundancy, and different materials might pull and warp each other), and the Max is a low cost, mechanically sound idea.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Mechanical -- Platform: Heated? (Expect to do mainly PLA, but allow for other materials.) Material? (e.g., commercial stuff I saw at the Bay Area Maker Faire last month?)

If you plan to do anything beyond PLA, and want a good experience with PLA, I would definitely heat it. How is dependent on the size/volume of manufacture. Silicone heat pads are fairly readily available in a variety of sizes, shapes, and voltages. PCB heaters are more limited, but don't require as much of a bed structure. If you make a bunch, or often have leftover space on PCB orders, you might be able to make your own. I would design it to at least match the stock max's W/in^2, but at something like 24VDC (It makes currents more sensible, and means steppers can go faster)

mikew67 wrote: [*] Moving parts -- Skates: Expect to design to fit our rails, but what size roller bearings? Have ordered some smaller ones from Banggood ("China, Inc.") to experiment with. Goal: reduce moving mass. Re noise: do I need to coat bearings or put them in a plastic/rubber roller?

I suggest if you want minimal noise and moving mass, the IGUS polymer bearings in the aluminum casing, which would also let you use their aluminum linear rods, which means thermal expansion is consistent over the entire printer. LMU88 is a standard linear bearing size.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Moving parts -- Rods and balljoints: Expect to use carbon fiber tubing and metal balljoints (ordered samples from Banggood). Specific advice?

I would consider using Seeme's OEM solution here. I've heard that Traxxas rod-ends can have a lot of slop in some cases, and that it does accumulate. If you do go with the Traxxas solution, I would talk to Brian at Trick-laser. He makes most of the carbon fiber arms/rod ends, and has just revealed adapters to connect his arms to Seeme balls. If you want something that's a little more off the wall, my personal favorite of those is the as yet little tested tensioned ball and cup arms, where a steel ball rides in a machined Acetal (or other material) cup, and retained by a series of tensioned strings connected to the carriage and effector.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Moving parts -- Belts and pulleys: Same as current Rostock?

I would go for the same GT2 belt, although the smallest available driven pulleys that give you a round number resolution (IE, a 16 tooth pulley on a 1.8 degree stepper gives you .16 MM's per full step, or .01 at the microstepping the max is set to. a .9 degree stepper turns that to .005 per micro step, and a 12 tooth pulley gives you a .0075 mm step on a 1.8 degree stepper. figure out what your layer height multiples you want are, and find a combination that gives you that ((teeth*pitch)/(steps/rev*microstepping))

mikew67 wrote: [*] Moving parts -- Flying platform: Designed to fit selected hot-end, but would like to make it adaptable to other attachments (e.g., use the printer as a pick-and-place system with vacuum pickup head for PCB assembly).

I suggest that unless you have a concrete reason not to, you want to use the same mounting pattern as the Rostock max. It actually doesn't have issues with other hotends with the right (Already designed and available) parts. There are even tool holders for pens/etc. If you find this limiting in size, I would just hang the tool below your effector.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Moving parts -- Steppers: Same as current Rostock, or larger to allow faster acceleration and movement?

The size isn't the issue with acceleration. Current and voltage are. I would use either 1.8 (Cheap) or .9 (precise) NEMA 17 steppers. Anything larger needs more expensive drivers. with 24VDC, and some amount of heatsinking from the drivers/steppers, the NEMA 17's are more than fine. Standalone drivers, as you mention you want to use, have a tighter current limit than all in one boards, as they sink to the PCB, and there is less PCB mass there than on say, a Duet. They are also intending to primarily sink through the bottom. So if you're designing the driver mounts, I would go for a nice sized hole for a heatsink to connect to, with the driver on the underside of the stick (if you follow normal driver stick form factor), so that you can have a heatsink catch airflow and be actually connected to the driver.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Moving parts -- Extruder: Would like to use case-mounted extruder and Bowden tube to minimize moving mass. But this may make fiber control too difficult. A floating extruder hanging above the hot-end with a short Bowden tube may be a good alternative. Comments? Given all that, what's the "best" extruder design to use (given that I can machine extruder shafts with sharp 60º grooves and peaks on my mill)?

Low mass, the Titan by E3D wins. it can use pancake steppers pretty easily, and has a number of other nice features. For the absolute best, the Bondtech QR is king. Dual driven hardened idlers wheels, with a fully constrained filament path. But it's class leading performance comes with a comparable price. If you're making it yourself, I would go with a geared dual drive design, and cut your stepper mass as much as possible.

mikew67 wrote: [*]Thermal -- Platform: Heated? How? Material?

As I mentioned above, PCB and silicone are the best options. You could also make a nichrome (Toaster wire) heat element and bond that to a surface if you want.

mikew67 wrote: [*]Thermal -- Hot-end: Probably the biggest unknown. What's the current advice on this? Should I machine my own from specialized materials (high-temp plastics, SS, etc.) or order it complete from "China, Inc."? Or start with the latter and evolve?

I very much like the E3D V6. I would neither buy it from China, Inc, nor make your own. The domain experience and machining techniques in the leading hotends put them in a performance class far above most garden variety home-brews, and far above cheap chinese clones.

Prometheus by Distech Automation for most total flexibility, although the nozzle size is annoyingly slow to change compared to an E3D.
E3D V6 is the latest revision of E3D's rather famous hotend, and it's most flexible for day to day use (And the new cartridge temp sensors are a great improvement, you can swap the nozzles and now temperature sensors very quickly and easily, both to fix defects, or to move to more specialized ones for different purposes.
Genuine Hotends.com (No Acceptable imitations or substitutions) J-heads are the kings of PLA. They are temperature constrained, and oft cloned/namechecked, but never beat on their specific use case.

Those are the big three. There are others, like the Pico-hotends, that have smaller user-bases, and other pro/cons.

mikew67 wrote: [*]Electronics -- Power supply: No problem. Will build into base.

I suggest 24VDC here. the power supplies aren't that expensive, and it makes your steppers/heaters more manageable. I suggest using a stepdown converter to feed fans 12V's though, for ease of sourcing.

mikew67 wrote: [*]Electronics -- Controller board: The RAMBo board looks like a nice solution, but not for me. Too expensive and not modular. Looks like the best solution is to break down the board into more cost-efficient and flexible pieces:

If you don't like the Rambo, the RAMPS (Modular version of it), or the RADDS (modular Duet) are both modular boards that are available. But the integrated package comes with some very tangible benefits. I suggest the Duet or RADDS board as an alternative for you, as the MCU is faster and more capable, while the boards are cheaper/

mikew67 wrote: [*] Stock Arduino Mega2560 or compatible (less than $10 from Banggood), and can be upgraded at any time.

Other than firmware for one processor doesn't transfer very well.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Either one board or a board with daughter cards for stepper drivers (already have) and heater drivers.

As mentioned earlier, the stepper drivers like big masses to sink heat to. Same for the heater mosfets to a degree. I would either sink each one individually, or buy an integrated board. Otherwise this can bite you later.

mikew67 wrote: [*] Misc. cables and connectors.
[*]Electronics -- LCD: Compatible with Arduino and firmware (below)?

The Smart LCD controller that SeemeCNC ships works fine, the Paneldue touch LCD driver is even nicer (but isn't well supported by the Rambo/Ramps/non-Due based firmware)

mikew67 wrote: [*]Electronics -- SD reader: Compatible with Arduino and firmware (below)?

The smart LCD controller mentioned a moment ago includes one. The Paneldue paired with a suggested panel and the new beta Duet board also provide another (The Duet .8.5 and .6 can't talk the the SD on the panel, as they lack the pins/hardware support as yet.

mikew67 wrote: [*]Firmware: Is Marlin the best firmware to use for this kind of printer? (Already have downloaded the Arduino IDE, Marlin repo, and MarlinDev repo.) If so, I can take my firmware issues to the Marlin group....[/list]

Marlin is far from ideal for a delta printer. Repetier offers better EEPROM integration for calibration without re-compiling, but the Rep-Rap firmware for the Duet family of hardware is best for deltas

mikew67 wrote: Lots of questions Sorry. Hope they and the forthcoming replies serve to crystalize thinking in the group.

TIA,

Mike

Wow! Jumping straight into a self-designed Delta as your first printer ...

Here is my 2-cents :

Thermal -- Hot-end: I use SeeMeCNC hot-end and E3D V6 and E3D volcano hot-ends with the SeeMeCNC effector and ball joints with MakerHives yellow jacket quick connect boards for light weight easy hot-end change out. (one for each type of plastic and color I use)

Thermal -- Platform: Heated: (I would) How: (design and etch your own pcb for your heating element) Material: multi-layer: pcb heating element, heat spreader made of copper or aluminum, borosilicate glass, PEI sheet.

Electronics -- Duet (you can use your stepper drivers if you want)

Firmware -- dc42's fork

I think you forgot this:

Enclosure --

mikew67 wrote:Hi, folks,

Have been lurking around the active 3D printer community in the SF Bay Area for several years. Not enough priority (or enough time to jump in. Week or so ago, my grandson visited from southern California and we spent several days 3D printing on a friends Makerbot Replicator 2 and Mini. Now he's got the bug and I do, too He's a budding scientist/engineer, so buying a printer (or even just building a kit) won't do, so in the Steve Jobs fashion "The journey is its own reward.", we want to design, analyze, and build a printer (definitely one faster than the Makerbots!) from scratch.

For more on my background, see my intro-to-the-forum posting: http://forum.seemecnc.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10466

We've decided to start with the Rostock Max V2 (or later) as a starting point. I have a bunch of parts and materials already (e.g., my own stepper driver, some surplus high-quality linear rails from SLAC surplus, etc.) and the skills to design and analyze the components and evolving design, so expect to make a derivative. Expect to report on progress here.

But now, would love to draw on the accumulated wisdom of this group concerning our starting point and how we might proceed. Here are a bunch of specific questions:

• Starting point: I've downloaded all the available info on the Rostock Max V2 (Thanks, SeeMeCNC, etc.). For example, grabbed the Solidworks CAD file and imported them to Autodesk's Fusion360 system (cloud-based, built for group collaboration, free for non-profit use, check it out). Is this the latest published starting point (especially for the CAD files), or is there something later I should be using?
• Mechanical -- Case: No problem here. Expect to use the high-quality rails (aluminum "T" extrusion, plus hardened steel 1/2" dia. rod) for the uprights.
• Mechanical -- Platform: Heated? (Expect to do mainly PLA, but allow for other materials.) Material? (e.g., commercial stuff I saw at the Bay Area Maker Faire last month?)
• Moving parts -- Skates: Expect to design to fit our rails, but what size roller bearings? Have ordered some smaller ones from Banggood ("China, Inc.") to experiment with. Goal: reduce moving mass. Re noise: do I need to coat bearings or put them in a plastic/rubber roller?
• Moving parts -- Rods and balljoints: Expect to use carbon fiber tubing and metal balljoints (ordered samples from Banggood). Specific advice?
• Moving parts -- Belts and pulleys: Same as current Rostock?
• Moving parts -- Flying platform: Designed to fit selected hot-end, but would like to make it adaptable to other attachments (e.g., use the printer as a pick-and-place system with vacuum pickup head for PCB assembly).
• Moving parts -- Steppers: Same as current Rostock, or larger to allow faster acceleration and movement?
• Moving parts -- Extruder: Would like to use case-mounted extruder and Bowden tube to minimize moving mass. But this may make fiber control too difficult. A floating extruder hanging above the hot-end with a short Bowden tube may be a good alternative. Comments? Given all that, what's the "best" extruder design to use (given that I can machine extruder shafts with sharp 60º grooves and peaks on my mill)?
• Thermal -- Platform: Heated? How? Material?
• Thermal -- Hot-end: Probably the biggest unknown. What's the current advice on this? Should I machine my own from specialized materials (high-temp plastics, SS, etc.) or order it complete from "China, Inc."? Or start with the latter and evolve?
• Electronics -- Power supply: No problem. Will build into base.
• Electronics -- Controller board: The RAMBo board looks like a nice solution, but not for me. Too expensive and not modular. Looks like the best solution is to break down the board into more cost-efficient and flexible pieces:
• Stock Arduino Mega2560 or compatible (less than $10 from Banggood), and can be upgraded at any time.
• Either one board or a board with daughter cards for stepper drivers (already have) and heater drivers.
• Misc. cables and connectors.
• Electronics -- LCD: Compatible with Arduino and firmware (below)?
• Electronics -- SD reader: Compatible with Arduino and firmware (below)?
• Firmware: Is Marlin the best firmware to use for this kind of printer? (Already have downloaded the Arduino IDE, Marlin repo, and MarlinDev repo.) If so, I can take my firmware issues to the Marlin group....

Lots of questions Sorry. Hope they and the forthcoming replies serve to crystalize thinking in the group.

TIA,

Mike

(Note, I see a couple other responses happened in parallel...I didn't read them prior to writing this. Hope it still helps.)

Big list. First off, realize that most of the active people in this forum are using some version of the SeeMe machines, which means Rambo board with reprapdiscount lcd panel, Repetier firmware, and either Repetier or Mattercontrol host. The further you get from that spec, the fewer people in here that will know enough to help you with specific issues. There will always be some that know a bit about everything, of course.

That said, lets see what I can help you with, going down your list:
[*] Mechanical -- Platform: You don't have to start out with a heated bed, but make sure your design allows for adding one later.
[*] Moving parts -- Skates: Consider buying SeeMe's carriage sets. They'll go on 1-inch T-slot.
[*] Moving parts -- Rods and balljoints: Consider SeeMe's balljoint/arm sets. The arms can be had in two different lengths (orion and rostock versions).
[*] Moving parts -- Belts and pulleys: So many options, just make sure your motor pully matches whatever you choose. Spectra fishing line is an alternative to traditional belts. Leadscrews would be another option.
[*] Moving parts -- Flying platform: Extruder platforms are aimed at extruders, but they're usually general purpose enough you can attach anything you want. Once you have a printer, you can print an adapter mount for whatever you need.
[*] Moving parts -- Steppers: Axis motors generally have plenty of power...the speed is constrained by other printing requirements, not the motors. Some people prefer geared extruder motors for greater torque. And some people choose to buy higher precision motors....although precision can also be adjusted when selecting your pulley sizes.
[*] Moving parts -- Extruder: There's a few threads in here about flying extruders. Do a search, they'll tell you more than I can.
[*]Thermal -- Platform: So many options, both in heating elements and printing surface/coatings. This is one of the greatest areas of expermentation among users as they search for the best compromise between adhesion and being able to remove the print when done.
[*]Thermal -- Hot-end: The E3D hotend or the Promethus hotend are some of the better all-metal ones on the market. I can't say much about the chinese clones...you take your chances. Don't try to make your own. Even if you have the skills and know the theory, you need some hotend experience first.
[*]Electronics -- Power supply: Single-voltage supplies are a lot easier to deal with than PC supplies, IMO.
[*]Electronics -- Controller board: The Mega2560+RAMPS+drivers solution is by far the cheapest, and functionally about the same as the Rambo board. The main thing you lose is the ability to set the driver output in software.
Some people have switched to ARM-based controllers(e.g. Smoothieboard or Duet), which have the CPU horsepower and features that outperform aruduino electronics. Probably smart to stick with cheap during your hardware development. You can always choose to upgrade later when you have a working machine.
[*]Electronics -- LCD: Reprapdiscount LCD/SD/controller panels are cheap. They often are sold with adapaters for the RAMPS board.
http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRapDiscount_Smart_Controller This is what SeeMe uses. Pretty muchthe original standard in the reprap world.
http://reprap.org/wiki/RepRapDiscount_F ... Controller The controls and SD card are the same, only the display is different. Many firmwares support it.
LCD panels are optional equipment...if you have a dedicated computer, you can use that instead to do everything.
[*]Electronics -- SD reader: Included in above LCD panels.
[*]Firmware: There is no best, there is only what you choose. And, unlike hardware, you can change your mind or try them all. Marlin is one of the more supported firmwares out there. Repetier is what most of the people in this forum use. Those are the main ones I'm aware of with active delta printer support.

The only reason is to source your own parts and not build it a kit is to build a high quality machine.


People say you can save money. Maybe you can, but you'd have to know everything and make zero mistakes in purchasing to save that money, otherwise is best just to save time and get a kit. You can get a cheap starter kit for $299 on aliexpress, or you can purchase a much nice kit like the Rostock v2.

If you do want to build your own machine, I'd suggest using nicer components. For example, there is no reason to use an 8bit avr. The Duet is a much better choice. There is no reason to buy carbon arms and assemble the Traxis rods yourself. The rods are one of the most important parts of the machine. You have got zero experience putting them together, and that, coupled with a low quality source is bound to lead to disaster. Trick lazer has beautiful rods assembled and ready to go. Design for an enclosure, heated bed, and auto level off the bat. There is no reason not to.

If you've never built and setup a printer before I'd strongly suggest you start with a kit or at least someones proven design, and don't try and fix something until you've seen it work and understand the shortcomings.
It's not that difficult to design and build a functional printer, the problem you'll run into if you've never setup and debugged a printer from scratch before is you end up chasing your tail. Without a good understanding of what correct is supposed to look like, problems turn into trying to determine if the cause is electrical, software or mechanical, and it can be damn frustrating if you've never dealt with it before.
I own a lot of printers, several of my own design, and at one point early in my exploration in the space my primary printer was a Mendel Max, I spent months and several hundred dollars on trying to fix some marginal Z Axis wobble with the printer, before it was finally resolved. I'd ask people for advice and get responses ranging from you need to constrain the ZScrew with a bearing at the top, to you need the screw to be unconstrained, to you need larger ZScrews or thinner ZScrews, or Acme lead Screws. FWIW in the end the issue as far as I can tell was the self aligning IGUS bushings on the ZAxis, they were just too willing to self align.
Delta printers can be worse because the software and it's configuration and both more onerous and is a much bigger factor in overall quality than it is for cartesian designs, you can resolve this to some extent with bed probes, but if your not careful, some designs are not especially repeatable and it adds something else you have to debug.
I'm not trying to disuade you here, but 3D printing can be a massively frustrating hobby until you've seen and understood what good looks like, and can apply it to what your building.

I have built robots that have only a couple of nanometers resolution. So I have a little bit of experience with building stuff.

Get a kit.

It is fairly good and at the end of it you have a functionning printer. Plus you have learned a lot.

Then you can use it to build your own design.


You can also start building your own, but running around for the little pieces will be the killer. Waiting for bits and bobs from china, going to the hardwarestore several times, designing testing redesigning waiting for new parts... I fear you will run out of steam.

It is not rocket sciece, just hobby robotics. With the kit you are printing in 20 hours. After 100 hours you have almost everything figured out. Whereas starting yourself from scratch you will still be tinkering after 200 hours with no prints.

It all depends what you value more. Time or money. But you will be working far far cheaper than your illegal immigrants.