RIP Steve's?

[theverant]

So there is a lot of talk of people replacing Steve's Extruder with the EZstruder, and I just noticed the RMax is shipping standard with EZS, now. Am I wasting my time trying to calibrate and learn to print with Steve's extruder? Should I just skip a step and go right to a direct drive system?

Has anyone compared the EZstruder to other DD extruders, like Airtripper's v3?

Does anyone else hate it when people spell "easy" as "EZ"? Makes me think of the shopping channel...

[jesse]

I have both and use Steve's extruder. Steve's provides more power. The EZ struder would always hit the electric current limit on the RAMBo when printing with PLA.

[theverant]

Is this because PLA requires more torque to push through?

[626Pilot]

The EZStruder is somewhat better (simpler, mounts on the top instead of on the side, shorter path from the drive to the hot end, etc.), although Steve's is geared like crazy so you got more accuracy pushing filament. It could also overcome backpressure from "melt creep," to which the EZStruder usually responds by skipping. It can be annoying, but on the other hand, maybe that's better than the extruder pushing so hard that your hot end springs a leak. (Not that that happened to me multiple times, or anything.)

My idea of the perfect extruder would be the EZ, but with a thin, lightweight planetary gear sandwiched between the stepper and the hobbed bolt. That would make it perfect. I can see the effects of the stepper's limited resolution as undulations in the line width, which magically becomes less noticable at higher print speeds. If it had a nice reduction gear, I think it would push filament more evenly, especially at low speeds. I'd keep the spring at the same tension, though, because I'd still rather it skip than cause me to have to clean up a huge mess.

[Flateric]

Yup, I agree with you that the ezstruder with a geared stepper is probably the best solution for an extruder. You would have power, speed and overcome the kickback or skipping. The other nice thing about Steve's is it allows you to actually adjust you feed rate during the print without repetier going into stutter mode due to the much higher number of steps per mm, 584 VS 92. This would also be the case with a geared stepper setup as well.

The ez is far superior in loading and not jamming as well. But I found the skipping and kickback and it inability to print at really high speed to be a unresolvable issue.

So, I went another route and simply printed a Greg's extruder, and have never looked back, power, speed, easy to print, cheap. The only issue some may have is fabricating the hobbed bolt. But there are version of the Greg's on thingiverse that you can print that would allow you to make use of the hobbed sleave that comes with your original Steve's or the ez.



[img]http://i.imgur.com/61caA6n.jpg[/img]

[theverant]

I was thinking about Greg's as well. Maybe I'll go for that. I have another printer which should be able to handle all of the Greg's pieces no problem.

Flateric, thanks for the suggestion. Do you mount the Greg's internally as with the EZ, or is it living where the Steve's was? What stepping are you using for it?

Cheers.

[Flateric]

Mine lives at the top of my machine and feeds the filament directly downwards through the center hole. I put my reels on an old extension cord reel frame that it secured at the top as well. Great success with this combo. I even managed to feed the rubber filament I have through the bowden tube and print with it. Shocked the heck outa me for sure.

I have also been printing PLA at 0.05 and .1 layer thicknesses (0.09 and 0.125 extrusion thickness for each as well) all morning WITH my E3D hotend. It seems that with the combo of the Greg's power and the newer E3D thermal design I finally can live with this hotend for PLA.

I find it works good for PLA with the fan on and as long as I never ever go above 200c with PLA life is good. I also partially attributed the new success to the Greg's because it has lots of power and can overcome the initial resistance when starting to extrude.

I'll post some pics later, I printed the super NES from thingiverse and the giant plus vase the size of a quarter. The look slick at 0.1 and 0.05 thicknesses. Kinda crazy how nice actually. I'm very happy with the E3D hotend now. Still curious to test their newer water experiment.

[doctorgonzo]

I'll post some pics later, I printed the super NES from thingiverse and the giant plus vase the size of a quarter. The look slick at 0.1 and 0.05 thicknesses. Kinda crazy how nice actually. I'm very happy with the E3D hotend now. Still curious to test their newer water experiment.

Water-cooled hot ends...$hits starting to get crazy, I love it...I can't decide whether to get a MAX or a Solidoodle...d^mn...

[626Pilot]

I was thinking about designing some sort of Peltier-based cooler. It would sink a little current, but weigh almost nothing.

[lordbinky]

You have to be careful with peltier coolers in this application for a couple reasons, I brainstormed on this idea too .

They max out at a thermal differential of around 70C. On top of that they generate heat so you'd have to cool the amount of heat the peltier is pulling as well the heat it is generating itself, although feasible since it appears we have excess cooling with a tiny fan. The peltier can pull some decent amps then you also have to power a fan to cool it, but you will also see additional current increases in the hot end's heater as well. I still see possible benefit in that cooling the the end of the hot end to sub room temperatures could shorten the melt zone.

[Eaglezsoar]

[quote="Flateric"]Yup, I agree with you that the ezstruder with a geared stepper is probably the best solution for an extruder. You would have power, speed and overcome the kickback or skipping. The other nice thing about Steve's is it allows you to actually adjust you feed rate during the print without repetier going into stutter mode due to the much higher number of steps per mm, 584 VS 92. This would also be the case with a geared stepper setup as well.

The ez is far superior in loading and not jamming as well. But I found the skipping and kickback and it inability to print at really high speed to be a unresolvable issue.

So, I went another route and simply printed a Greg's extruder, and have never looked back, power, speed, easy to print, cheap. The only issue some may have is fabricating the hobbed bolt. But there are version of the Greg's on thingiverse that you can print that would allow you to make use of the hobbed sleave that comes with your original Steve's or the ez.

I don't know what kind of camera you used to take that picture but it has to be the clearest, sharpest picture I have seen posted. I was shocked when I saw the perfect focus and
detail. Great job!

[Flateric]

Believe it or not, that was just my iphone 4s. Sunlight had alot to do with the clarity I think.

[inventabuild]

Flateric,

Glad to hear your happy w/ the Greg's modified extruder for the Rostock Max (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:112478) because I am still having serious print problems which I relate to the extruder / 1:1 motor.

Do you know if this will bolt right into the set up for the EZMount Kit for Rostock Max:

http://tricklaser.com/EZmount-KIT-for-R ... NT-KIT.htm

Also, are you aware of any assembly instructions which state proper bolt/screw size, show diagrams, etc?

Thank you.

[maxman]

Flateric,

Did you print it in ABS or PLA ?

I was thinking PLA for the Gears and then ABS for the body ?

Any Suggestions ?

[Flateric]

I am unsure of if it will mount in the EZmount kit. Sorry, I can't see why not though, it could be mounted anywhere with little effort. I have mine sitting on top of my machine feeding down through the center hole in the top plate.

I printed the high resolution fishbone gears in both PLA and ABS AND polycarb. I feel the ABS run the smoothest with the least binding and least slop. I guess that this is because the ABS is slightly softer and more forgiving with the teeth. Not sure if the ABS version will last the longest but seems to be doing great. My original Greg's used the standard gears and I had printed them in PLA, there was a tiny bit of slop however. The fishbone gears are far superior IMO. I also printed a idler that has a filament guide built in and feel that it is a better choice as well.

The hobbed bolt I made myself. I first marked the exact spot on the bolt that would align with the filament path by putting the unmodded bolt into the freshly printed extruder. I used a sharpie.

I then used a cordless drill with the bolt mounted in the drill and a small round chainsaw file mounted in a vise to make a slight dish in the bolt at the marked location. About 1mm deep. Taking care to be smooth and even with the filed dip. This was easy with the cordless drill set to low.

The I removed the bolt from the drill and placed it in 2 bearings and then fixed this into the vice so that the bolt would be held there but still spin freely, very freely.

I put a small tap, I believe it was a 8-32, into the cordless drill and set the drill to it's low gearing and put cutting oil on the dip in the bolt and on the tap. I then carefully applied even pressure with the tap into the dip and let the spinning tap feed itself around the bolt spinning in the bearings. Firm but even and slow and steady. This will take a bit of time and the trick is to not strip the threads out as you go but to allow the tap to recut itself into the bolt over and over as it goes around. The shape should already be set by the round file. The purpose of the tape feeding the bolt is to cut the grip into the dip. The knurling if that makes any sense.

If that doesn't work well for you, I have also seen it done by simply crushing the tap against the bolt over and over all the way around to press the knurling into the dip. This did not work as well, but did work.

It is important to cut the knurling into the dip in very consistent spacing. This is why I like the bolt in bearings in the vice method more. If your knurling is not consistently spaced and does not have nice sharp even teeth the filament will feed and or slip inconsistently during operation and this would be bad.

After you have got it right, and bolts are super cheap so just keep at it till you get it, heat the bolt up and then quench it quickly to harden the steel and extend the knurling's lifespan.

Take your time and don't settle for "good enough" here, you'll go crazy later on with calibration, starvation and other filament related issues later on if you try to rush this. Patience and perfection are what your after here. I do not use a hardened grade bolt as a stock material because it is far to hard to cut proper knurling deeply into them and for our pruposes it would be overkill. Far easier to do the kurling on a standard grade bolt and harden it and end up with sharper deeper knurling.

Good luck, it's not that hard and once you have been successful with one, you can crank them out decently fast and consistently.

[Flateric]

This is the upgraded gear set I used.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:97377

This is the extruder I ended up printing for my 3rd extruder. I like it a bit more due to the filament guide it has and the hole through the extruder main body allows a bowden tube to come all the way up to the bolt itself leaving no gap between the feed and the input into the bowden tube (I use the E3D fitting that allows the bowden tube to pass completely through, won't work with the brass PTF connector unless you drill it out or something)

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:18379

It has a better idler part too that guides the filament into the dip. This is very helpful in preventing your feed from jumping out of the knurled bolt dip.

Here's a bowden adaptor for any Greg's extruder that you may find handy.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:73761

This is the best idler yet for the extruder. The one included with the extruder above is fine, but this version is thicker and angled better for the bolts to engage and slotted so that you can swing the bolts up and out of it without completely removing them from the extruder when changing filament.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:19997

And finally for the man who must have perfection and have it all, this is a quick-release "birdnose" bolt release and engage for the idler.

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11731

If you print all of these "best" Greg's and Greg's accsessories you end up with all the easy of loading and unloading of the EZstruder, the power of the Steve's and the smooth slip free silent operation of a greg's.

Hope that helps you guys out.

[theverant]

Yeah, thanks for the links, that's great!