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Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:53 am
by travelphotog
Hey Guys!

Well I am a little late in getting this thread started and for that I am sorry! I was so excited and wrapped up in the build and upgrades that I waited until I started an 11 hour print to start this thread.

I got my Max V2 on a Thursday and I have her all finished up and ready to go by Friday night. Along the way I added a few upgrades and tried my hardest to keep it a very clean build in the end. Well I guess it is time for show and tell. I thought about painting my Max V2 like others had done, but in the end I decided to keep that for my second one (Yes, there WILL be more coming I think) So time for the pictures!
Well all know what this is. The start of a great adventure!
Well all know what this is. The start of a great adventure!
After reading around here a bit and knowing the upgrades I want later, I opted for a new 750W power supply. Also wanted to cut down on the cables inside.
After reading around here a bit and knowing the upgrades I want later, I opted for a new 750W power supply. Also wanted to cut down on the cables inside.
I picked these little guys up off Ebay after doing a bit of research on here and I few other spots. They were easy to mount and....
I picked these little guys up off Ebay after doing a bit of research on here and I few other spots. They were easy to mount and....
The offset was super easy to dial in with a caliber. just measured their thickness and adjusted the offset by the same. Everything lined up perfectly.
The offset was super easy to dial in with a caliber. just measured their thickness and adjusted the offset by the same. Everything lined up perfectly.
I worked hard to keep everything nice and neat inside (little did I know what the RAMBO had in store for my later) I used zipties and wax lacing cord ( SO WORTH IT! ) to try and keep it all tidy inside.
I worked hard to keep everything nice and neat inside (little did I know what the RAMBO had in store for my later) I used zipties and wax lacing cord ( SO WORTH IT! ) to try and keep it all tidy inside.
I thought I was doing so well at this point on keeping all nice and clean. Little did I know the mess of wires that would soon attack my nice clean spaces around the RAMBO.
I thought I was doing so well at this point on keeping all nice and clean. Little did I know the mess of wires that would soon attack my nice clean spaces around the RAMBO.
It took some doing... But I managed to get all the wires through the middle and keep everything where it belongs. This was also my stopping point for night 1 with about 5ish hours put in so far I think.
It took some doing... But I managed to get all the wires through the middle and keep everything where it belongs. This was also my stopping point for night 1 with about 5ish hours put in so far I think.
To change up the pace I switched to the Nexus 7 over the Ipad to build the Cheapskates. So far things are looking good. I was starting to feel very good about the build and how it was going.
To change up the pace I switched to the Nexus 7 over the Ipad to build the Cheapskates. So far things are looking good. I was starting to feel very good about the build and how it was going.
Yeah this ugly mug took a second to enjoy his work when the other half got home! Cheapskates are ona nd belts are all finished. This brought me to my first REAL upgrade...
Yeah this ugly mug took a second to enjoy his work when the other half got home! Cheapskates are ona nd belts are all finished. This brought me to my first REAL upgrade...
I was SUPER lucky to contact the guys over at Trick Laser and after a TINY bit of begging I was able to scratch up a set of Carbon Fiber arms that had been out of stock forever. They had ONE set left and threw it may way. Those guys ROCK!
I was SUPER lucky to contact the guys over at Trick Laser and after a TINY bit of begging I was able to scratch up a set of Carbon Fiber arms that had been out of stock forever. They had ONE set left and threw it may way. Those guys ROCK!
OK... More to come!

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:21 am
by travelphotog
Round two of show and tell!
Carbon Fiber arms are all mounted up and ready to go. Mounting these guys all alone with only two hands was interesting I will admit. I love how they work but not so fond of how they install. But WOW do they print nice!
Carbon Fiber arms are all mounted up and ready to go. Mounting these guys all alone with only two hands was interesting I will admit. I love how they work but not so fond of how they install. But WOW do they print nice!

So yeah.. The RAMBO... I love that dude.. I mean he controls my baby and makes her run SO great.. But man did he make a MESS of my good work inside.. I was so wrapped up in trying to keep everything clean and with putting on connectors.. That well.. I admit I slacked out on the pic taking... Sorry guys!
Every good maker has a helper... Mine just happens love sitting all 18 LBS of her Maine Coon fur butt in my lap while I work. Could be worse I guess.. Just adding the finishing touches to the RAMBO LCD.. The STOP button was sticking a bit.. Nothing a bit of jewelry filing will not fix in a jiffy.
Every good maker has a helper... Mine just happens love sitting all 18 LBS of her Maine Coon fur butt in my lap while I work. Could be worse I guess.. Just adding the finishing touches to the RAMBO LCD.. The STOP button was sticking a bit.. Nothing a bit of jewelry filing will not fix in a jiffy.
There she is! The first phase of the build is over! Time to see if she has a heart beat
There she is! The first phase of the build is over! Time to see if she has a heart beat
All programmed, calibrated and ready to see how she prints!
All programmed, calibrated and ready to see how she prints!
Her second print was the mount for the new E3d V6 hot end!
Her second print was the mount for the new E3d V6 hot end!
Two out of the three parts done! SO CLOSE!! Time to see how a larger print job does!
Two out of the three parts done! SO CLOSE!! Time to see how a larger print job does!
Printing the mount spacers and the LED attachments.
Printing the mount spacers and the LED attachments.
Third print out of the printer still has a bit of FUNK on it.. But that is user error. At this point I was just grinning ear to ear for two reasons. The prints are AMAZINGLY easy and look GREAT... And second because now I have all I need to mount the E3d V6!
Third print out of the printer still has a bit of FUNK on it.. But that is user error. At this point I was just grinning ear to ear for two reasons. The prints are AMAZINGLY easy and look GREAT... And second because now I have all I need to mount the E3d V6!
Out with the old and in with the new! The stock head did great for me. But I need to print nylons and PC so it had to go to make room for my new baby! I fast flipping of the screws on the mount and she is ready to go in!
Out with the old and in with the new! The stock head did great for me. But I need to print nylons and PC so it had to go to make room for my new baby! I fast flipping of the screws on the mount and she is ready to go in!
All mounted, tuned and ready to go!
All mounted, tuned and ready to go!
OK it is late guys and I have used all the pics for post it says... So I will catch you guys tomorrow and give a peek at the LED system controllers and stuff...
This build has a bit more in store also!

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:10 am
by Jimustanguitar
Looks awesome, what a nice build! The Rambo can be dressed up, but you're right about the wires just being difficult to work with. On mine, I have all of the screw terminal wires loomed to the right, motors to the left, etc... Picture coming soon.

The guys at Trick Laser are awesome! If you're really nice to Brian, some parts can be custom made. I just put on some 40mm carbon fiber spacers for my E3D.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/auJmywb.png[/img]

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:48 am
by Eaglezsoar
Jimustanguitar wrote:Looks awesome, what a nice build! The Rambo can be dressed up, but you're right about the wires just being difficult to work with. On mine, I have all of the screw terminal wires loomed to the right, motors to the left, etc... Picture coming soon.

The guys at Trick Laser are awesome! If you're really nice to Brian, some parts can be custom made. I just put on some 40mm carbon fiber spacers for my E3D.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/auJmywb.png[/img]
Jim, may I ask what mount you used for your E3D and which Version of the E3D is the one pictured? (The shroud makes it look like V6)
Very clean install!

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:05 am
by Jimustanguitar
Yes, it's the newest V6 E3D.

For the mount, Glenn from my local makerspace designed a mounting plate with integrated circuitry. http://makerhive.proboards.com/thread/1 ... otend-plug
They're not officially "on the market" yet, but they will be soon. He's working on a v2 that has thru-hole components and can be sold as a kit for the average solderer.

I don't have great pictures to feature it, but here are a couple to give you the general idea.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/xjXbato.png[/img]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/aKHSndG.png[/img]

Blurry :/
[img]http://i.imgur.com/vNViFax.png[/img]

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:11 am
by Eaglezsoar
Jim, please let us know when these are available on the market.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:18 pm
by Tinyhead
Nice build and in good time!

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:16 pm
by travelphotog
Thanks! I had a great time doing the build. Though the more time I spend here the more things I want to change. I wish I had 2 rostocks, one for printing and one for R & D. Might have to make that happen in a month or so...

But after seeing the E3D PCB mount pics I might be hitting the computer and making some upgrades of my own this weekend. I make PCBs for my Arduino projects all the time. This gave me a few ideas! In a short time I am picking up a desktop CNC mill for PCBs as I make so many. I am looking forward to exploring this concept and seeing where I can take it on my MAX.

I am changing out the RAMBO fan today for a Noctua 60mm and adding a Noctua 92mm on the side for over all lower bay cooling. I am really looking forward to ditching the loud RAMBO fan and keeping things nice and cool over all.

I did a few other upgrades and will try to dig up the pics and get them posted shortly. I think today is mostly going to be a design day though over all. Have an 11 hour print to knock out so CAD day it is!

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:54 pm
by travelphotog
Well Amazon had a bit of a mix up today and sent over a 92mm Noctua instead of my 60mm one. A short call got it sorted out and the new fan is being overnighted for tomorrow. I guess the upgrade for the RAMBO fan has to wait another day. I still need to print out a replacement side panel for the main cooling fan I adding to the lower bay. Also going to print out a whole second mount system so i can have it for some R and D work I have in mind. I ordered some LEDs today and will be designing a LED ring PCB tonight for mounting under the printing platform. Pics will follow soon once I have a few PCB boards made and the LED come in at the end of this week.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:49 pm
by travelphotog
Jimustanguitar wrote:Looks awesome, what a nice build! The Rambo can be dressed up, but you're right about the wires just being difficult to work with. On mine, I have all of the screw terminal wires loomed to the right, motors to the left, etc... Picture coming soon.

The guys at Trick Laser are awesome! If you're really nice to Brian, some parts can be custom made. I just put on some 40mm carbon fiber spacers for my E3D.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/auJmywb.png[/img]

Looking forward to seeing the pic of the RAMBO wires. I love the mount you have. Inspires me to look into making a custom PCB for myself. Will be nice change from making them for other work projects for a change. Always nice to have something to do to keep you busy during long prints! I have some carbon fiber spacers on the way. Should be here in a few days. REALLY looking forward to putting those guys in place as it took me a bit t hit the type I wanted. As soon as I have them up I will post a pic.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:34 pm
by Eaglezsoar
travelphotog wrote:Thanks! I had a great time doing the build. Though the more time I spend here the more things I want to change. I wish I had 2 rostocks, one for printing and one for R & D. Might have to make that happen in a month or so...

But after seeing the E3D PCB mount pics I might be hitting the computer and making some upgrades of my own this weekend. I make PCBs for my Arduino projects all the time. This gave me a few ideas! In a short time I am picking up a desktop CNC mill for PCBs as I make so many. I am looking forward to exploring this concept and seeing where I can take it on my MAX.

I am changing out the RAMBO fan today for a Noctua 60mm and adding a Noctua 92mm on the side for over all lower bay cooling. I am really looking forward to ditching the loud RAMBO fan and keeping things nice and cool over all.

I did a few other upgrades and will try to dig up the pics and get them posted shortly. I think today is mostly going to be a design day though over all. Have an 11 hour print to knock out so CAD day it is!
May I ask which desktop cnc mill you are going to be getting?

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:14 pm
by travelphotog
Since my main use the CNC will be PCB etching and some light 6061 aluminum milling, I have chosen the Shapeoko 2 with a 400W spindle ( router is too our for inside my office ). Oddly enough it was a story I saw on the Max v2 while researching Shapeoko that lead me to buying the Max v2 and getting into 3d printing. I discovered that i would need a housing for the TinyG CNC controller and also end stop switch mounts and such. All of which could be printed out on the 3D printer. I also soon saw how useful it would be for my Reef LEDs and Arduino projects.

I wish I had the budget and space for a larger and more powerful CNC mill, but that is just not the case. For the PCB etching ( I am SO sick of acid etching boards 24/7 ) and the little it of aluminum milling I want I think the Shapeoko 2 will get my by for now.

Right now I am waiting on a client to settle up on a large build I did for them of a remote camera dolly system and 20ft of black anodized aluminum trackway.
This was my last project and will pay for the CNC
This was my last project and will pay for the CNC
Once that project is finished up I will be grabbing the CNC and putting it to work straight away!

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:28 pm
by travelphotog
Had a chance to add some LEDs as a test and also knocked out a few large prints.
Printing out the LED holders in Taulman Bridge after discovering the STL I started with was too small for the size LEDs I wanted to use.
Printing out the LED holders in Taulman Bridge after discovering the STL I started with was too small for the size LEDs I wanted to use.
The LED controller and some 5050 LEDs. In the end I went with some 5730 LEDs instead. More light for the buck.
The LED controller and some 5050 LEDs. In the end I went with some 5730 LEDs instead. More light for the buck.
I used some CAT5 cabling to wire up the light on the X and Y towers. Both are connected to the RF LED PWM remote controller..
I used some CAT5 cabling to wire up the light on the X and Y towers. Both are connected to the RF LED PWM remote controller..
Starting a Bridge Nylon print with the new LEDs in place.
Starting a Bridge Nylon print with the new LEDs in place.
The LEDs worked great for the first big print in Nylon.
The LEDs worked great for the first big print in Nylon.
Played with some Bridge Nylon for a few items. 60-40 fan mount for the new RAMBO fan, solder holder and spool arm in Nylon.
Played with some Bridge Nylon for a few items. 60-40 fan mount for the new RAMBO fan, solder holder and spool arm in Nylon.
Working to dial in the ABS settings. left side was first. Now if I can just fix the tip I am pretty happy. Just learning as I go along.
Working to dial in the ABS settings. left side was first. Now if I can just fix the tip I am pretty happy. Just learning as I go along.
Tonight I am finishing working on a CAD design of the lower side panels to hold the new 90MM fans I picked up to cool the lower bay. Looking forward to printing those out tomorrow and mounting them along with the new RAMBO fan.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:06 am
by travelphotog
Max side Panel 92mm fan 1 CS GUARD R1 2.JPG
Knocked out the replacement side panel with fan mount in CAD tonight. Waiting for a 9 hour print to finish so I can give this a try and see if I can mount the new fans tomorrow night.
Knocked out the replacement side panel with fan mount in CAD tonight. Waiting for a 9 hour print to finish so I can give this a try and see if I can mount the new fans tomorrow night.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:30 am
by Eaglezsoar
travelphotog wrote:
Max side Panel 92mm fan 1 CS GUARD R1 2.JPG
Max side Panel 92mm fan 1 CS GUARD R1.JPG
Would you be willing to share the STL for the side panels?
They would work great for additional cooling.

Also, when you print with nylon, what do you use to help adhere the nylon to the glass?

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:20 pm
by travelphotog
I am test printing the panels today. Once I am sure they are good I will be very glad to release them without issue. I'm still a bit new at making STLs so I want to triple check my work before I give someone a file that could have an issue.

For the nylon I used the Purple Gluestick and it worked very well. I almost had an issue getting the solder holder base off the print glass. So I guess that is good.

As soon as I have the first panel printed I will throw the files up here. let me know if anyone wants another sized fan opening. Right now it is set for a 92mm fan wit 6-32 screw holes for the fan mount. Rest of the panel is stock Rostock size.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 6:41 pm
by travelphotog
OK here are the files. I only have red PLA on hand and this is also my first ever print in PLA. But the panel looks great and everything lines up the way I wanted. This file is for adding 92mm fans in the Max V2 lower side panels. One file has the fan guard and one does not. I will post a few render images also so everyone know what it looks like. The fan mount screws are for a 6-32 screw.
This is my first print in PLA so be kind!  But here is the panel at about 47% or so.
This is my first print in PLA so be kind! But here is the panel at about 47% or so.
Here are the files for the panel with a guard:
Front side
Front side
Back / Fan side
Back / Fan side
Max side Panel 92mm fan 1 CS GUARD R3F.STL
92mm fam panel with guard
(232.8 KiB) Downloaded 197 times

Here are the files for the one without a guard:
Fan side. Front side is plain.
Fan side. Front side is plain.
Max side Panel 92mm fan 1 CS HOLE R3F.STL
Fan hole without a guard
(73.13 KiB) Downloaded 256 times

If anyone needs another size fan I could whip it up overnight or in a day or two.
Hope it helps someone out.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:54 pm
by travelphotog
So my fan panel printed out great today. It was my first tall and thin print so I was excited to see it come out perfectly. I installed the fan at first pulling air into the base. I then noticed that my bed had a hard time getting to temp for nylon... I turned the fan around to pull air out of the base and the bed heated right up as before. Guessing the fan was blowing cold air up the hole in the middle of the base plate and cooling the bed too much. It is now pulling out nice warm air and keeping things nice and cool inside.
Nice print overall for a first ever PLA
Nice print overall for a first ever PLA
Back side
Back side
Front side
Front side
All mounted. Thinking of doing other side in Nylon and trying a black die on it.
All mounted. Thinking of doing other side in Nylon and trying a black die on it.
Tonight is the printout of the new LED holders... I did not like the ones I found so I redid them in Solidworks today and will print them out tonight while I work on the enclosure setup in CAD tonight. Also tomorrow the first LED idea for the print plate will arrive... My 5730 LEDs will arrive shortly so i will mbe knocking out the PCB ring for that this weekend I think. I think I have a thing for LEDs and lots of light where I work from being around my reef tank LEDs and being a photographer.. We tend to like light I guess.

Let me know if anyone needs a different size fan for panel, finds an issue or wants a tweak to the design. Always glad to help out where I can.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:39 am
by dtgriscom
Those fan guard holes look much too small to allow free airflow. Unless you're running the fan at low voltage to slow it way down, you might want to make them larger, or switch to a lattice pattern. Otherwise you're likely to get more air noise and less airflow than you'd like.


Dan

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:56 am
by Eaglezsoar
After looking at it mounted I have to agree with Dan, the holes are too small. The lattice would probably work best to have more open area rather than solid plastic.
The idea is to open it up as much as possible yet a small amount of lattice only to protect from youngsters from sticking their fingers in.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:56 am
by travelphotog
Yeah after seeing it in person I also can see that the holes might be a bit small. It is moving a good bit of air but I can see that larger holes or long slots would give more flow. Also working on an intake for the other side which is a little more low key. If it pans out I will post it for you guys to look at. I should have the new panel up by lunch time in Texas.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:22 pm
by nitewatchman
I added two 80mm Fans from CoolerGuys via Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002NV ... UTF8&psc=1) to my rear panels to solve the same problem. Since adding these exhausting air from the base the components including the stepper are cool to the touch.

I took the two panels to my Tormach 1100 and the 1100 introduced them to "his little friend" a 1/8" end mill. This cut the opening to fit the fan inner surfaces and bolt holes. A second screen (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014W ... UTF8&psc=1) was fitted to the hole with the grill turned in and bolted. This was then connected to a 5VDC tap on the modular power supply. The fans start with the main power switch and are silent, no motor or wind sounds.

Works well for me - Your Mileage May Vary.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:04 pm
by Eaglezsoar
Very good job! That looks highly professional.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:06 pm
by travelphotog
That does look very nice! If I had my CNC already i would have loved to do it that way. I had a few "shut downs" wile idel right after the build.. i removed the side panels and this seemed to stop it. Lacking my CNC ( in a few weeks or a month I hope to change that) I did a crash course in Soildworks and tried my hand at it. I am still working on the changes you guys asked for. I got called away from the house for a shoot at the last second so I had to run. I am printing a test of the new panel I worked on last night. Once I get dinner taken care of I will see about the changes for you guys.

I got a bunch of goodies today also. New RAMBO fan, 2 LEDs to test out for the printing head area and my carbon fiber spacers came in today! SUPER excited about those spacers! I had to hunt for the style I wanted and they look GREAT! Pics soon.

Re: Rostock Max V2 build with a few upgrades from the start.

Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:24 am
by travelphotog
Well life seems to have slacked off enough to let me hit the CAD again tonight... I had a less than fun adventure the other day. I tried out some PLA from a local shop and it ended up blocked up my E3d V6 head... In the process of trying to clear that out I cooked the little bowden connector on top just enough to mess it up very well. So the V6 head is down while I wait for parts to come in.

But all is not lost really. I threw the stock head back on and I have been printing out test pyramids and color swatches of all my new PLA filaments I picked up. Before all that happened I knocked out a Tower Of Pi big holder in T Glase and it turned out well.
Tower of Pi start in T glase
Tower of Pi start in T glase
The five hour print is going well for first T glase object.
The five hour print is going well for first T glase object.
All done. Not a huge fan of the way the T Glase came out on the numbers. But I know it is a settings / filament issue AND calibration I later found out.
All done. Not a huge fan of the way the T Glase came out on the numbers. But I know it is a settings / filament issue AND calibration I later found out.
So when the hot end decided to flake out on me I decided to go ahead and re-calibrate the whole thing and this time try to do it right.
So this is my new BEST friend! I printed up the mount with the stock hotend in ABS and got to work.
So this is my new BEST friend! I printed up the mount with the stock hotend in ABS and got to work.
All four spots were within a HAIR of of this so I called it good. When I first threw the dial on it was not fun seeing how far off the "paper method" had me. Which was my own fault I know.
All four spots were within a HAIR of of this so I called it good. When I first threw the dial on it was not fun seeing how far off the "paper method" had me. Which was my own fault I know.
Asdie from a TINY bit of stringing on a few parts, these are far better results than I was seeing before I used the dial.
Asdie from a TINY bit of stringing on a few parts, these are far better results than I was seeing before I used the dial.
I have noticed a slight issue in my last two PLA test prints. The back left ( between X and Z towers) seems to bend in a bit. My other test print after hot end and calibrations changes looks fine, while these two have this same issue. Ideas of what I need to correct?
I have noticed a slight issue in my last two PLA test prints. The back left ( between X and Z towers) seems to bend in a bit. My other test print after hot end and calibrations changes looks fine, while these two have this same issue. Ideas of what I need to correct?
Front two have the issue. The back left leg bends a bit.  The red was down with V6 head. but the black on in the background is stock head after re calibration as are the foreground test and only the front two have the issue.
Front two have the issue. The back left leg bends a bit. The red was down with V6 head. but the black on in the background is stock head after re calibration as are the foreground test and only the front two have the issue.

So tonight I am printing up the second version of the side panel I wanted to try. Now that I have the stock head and a PLA layer for for it I can knock that design out and see how I like it. I am also going to rework the first panel I posted earlier and try to put it back up if anyone wants it. I'm still a new guy at CAD compared to most of you guys. So somethings take a but more time for me than most I guess on some CAD aspects.