Welcome to the SeeMeCNC Community

I think there is a big opportunity to create a 3d printer that works out of the box for real engineering applications. I'm curious what you guys think and what features you think it should have. here is my starting list:

• heated removable glass build plate up to 120 c
• hot end up to 320c with easy nozzle size replacement
• enclosed, heated build chamber to kill draft and capture any fumes
• 200x200x400mm build volume (400 can be any dimension, preferably vertical)
• open source software and firmware
• bowden tube for 1.75mm filament that brings in filament from a dry box (maybe even active drying) (many engineering plastics are very hydroscopic)

This would allow engineers to create real parts out of high performing engineering plastics like PC and Nylons without having to buy a multi hundred thousand dollar printer, or have to buy a consumer level printer and make numerous upgrades to get going.

What do you guys and gals think?

I'm actually currently in the process of designing just this. It is a Cartesian printer, not a Delta though.

That heated build chamber won't happen commercially without a hefty lawsuit, I think Stratasis owns the rights to this weird thing called a patent. I've heard its a way for control freaks and cry babies to keep people from improving on their ideas in a way that is mutually beneficial for everyone just so they can make a couple extra bucks in the short term.

Nylocke wrote:That heated build chamber won't happen commercially without a hefty lawsuit, I think Stratasis owns the rights to this weird thing called a patent. I've heard its a way for control freaks and cry babies to keep people from improving on their ideas in a way that is mutually beneficial for everyone just so they can make a couple extra bucks in the short term.

First of all, I'm no lawyer...

I think there's wiggle room on this because the patent that I read described the "gantry" being enclosed. It's arguable that a Delta machine does not have a gantry.

Take it or leave it

My idea was to make it easily encloseable by the user with mounting provisions already in place.

I don't think it has to be a delta! cartesian's are good too. can you tell me more about this printer? are you doing so for yourself or commercially?

also a quick google revealed - http://payne.org/blog/stratasys-heated- ... re-patent/ . you don't infringe a patent unless ALL the claims are true. so even by avoiding one claim you can avoid infringement. (you can never avoid not getting sued however) Here is a good intro on how to read patents http://adlervermillion.com/how-to-read-a-patent/

jeffhuber wrote:I don't think it has to be a delta! cartesian's are good too. can you tell me more about this printer? are you doing so for yourself or commercially?

Primarily for myself as a proof of concept right now, but am trying to make sure I keep the design commercially viable.

I'll expand on the details a bit more when I have more time, but one thing I will say is that it is not designed with much of a RepRap mentality. I would like to keep it completely open source, but 3D printed parts will be kept at a minimum since it will have a much more industrial feel (mostly due to laser cut steel plates and tubing) than most currently available consumer printers.

Awesome, I'd love to know more about that when you are ready to share. I am also from Raleigh originally - NC state grad.

I think the patent thing is actually the opposite of what you said, you only have to infringe on an independent claim. And you don't get to decide what "infringe" means; the corporate lawyers can take you to court any time they want for whatever reason, and it will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars no matter what! Of course it costs them a lot of money too but their lawyers get paid no matter what. However, they may not bring a lawsuit against you if they know you would fight it and win.

So I think delta printers are off the hook on this one, and with some clever designing, cartesians could be too.

I have a design for a big delta printer with all of the features you specify, plus a few extras;

1) Heated build chamber up to 120+ degrees C.
2) Build diameter of 16 inches, height of 30 inches.
3) Automatic tool changer for 3 nozzle FFF, multi-material fluid extruder for food and biological materials, and spindle for very light machining and subtractive.

The build cost so far is ~800-900 dollars for the FFF version only but I expect it will go up to $1200+ with the other attachments. Too bad this is all theoretical until I get money to prototype it! Mine also has minimal printed parts inside the hot zone, but most of the parts are standard hardware. I was on the fence between steel and aluminum for the frame; the cutting costs are the largest single expense of the printer.
The ultimate goal is to be able to print a functional gun. Not necessarily for the purpose of printing guns, but because guns are relatively difficult to make and if you can make one, you can make many other things!

Kickstarter Hypetrain now boarding!

that sounds awesome! given what else is out there .... you could sell that for probably 2-3x costs at least!

timeline, we need a timeline! =)

jeffhuber wrote:I am also from Raleigh originally - NC state grad.

Very cool....they have taken quite a bit of my money as well....money well spent though.

I would bet the big boys (stratasys & 3dsystems) are protective over the commercial market. My work (Aerospace Engineering) has a stratasys printer that with most of those design requirements, just no open source equipment. Its interesting to see the clear line drawn between the consumer market and commercial market

noishi wrote:I would bet the big boys (stratasys & 3dsystems) are protective over the commercial market. My work (Aerospace Engineering) has a stratasys printer that with most of those design requirements, just no open source equipment. Its interesting to see the clear line drawn between the consumer market and commercial market

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your first post!

I guess that is the fundamental concern - the big boys will actively sue companies that they think infringe on their market even if they are operating in the clear from a patent perspective. (This reminds me of the Form1-3d Systems case)

But I think there is enough history in the courts to uphold this - so it is really more of a matter of needing a well-funded startup to have a war chest to do it.

You may have just described a Creatbot.

After their unimpressedness at my misbehaving v1, the guys at work bought a Creatbot a couple of weeks ago.

Frankly, I'm impressed. Unconstrained by the need to ship a big, quickish and super sexy box for under $1000, these guys have got a solid metal box machine with doors and an extractor hoodable top that pretty much comes out of the box and prints. Prints well.

Creatbot doesn't go over 250 c, which is basically a dealbreaker already =(

It seems like there has been a huge demand in the past two years for consumer level 3d printers, and most are limited to PLA only. Some can do ABS, but both PLA and ABS are low quality. Mechanical parts need to be made of nylon, polycarbonate, acetal, ect. And we still need to improve tolerances and surface finishes!

Nylocke wrote:Kickstarter Hypetrain now boarding!

Do you have any free passes so that I can have a ride?

We're running ours up to 270 and they have an e3d option en route so it's close and getting closer.

If it doesn't suit, here's a message to take away from the experience:

There's a market for tinkerers and hobbyists and most printers available today sit there. There's a market for super duper crazy machines worth tens and hundreds of thousands for the big designs hops.

But there's definitely a market for something in the middle.

Put a high temp nozzle, and implement a fully automatic calibration and the rostock will be pretty close in my opinion.

teoman wrote:Put a high temp nozzle, and implement a fully automatic calibration and the rostock will be pretty close in my opinion.

The problem is that an automatic solver for the delta kinematics is a very, very hard problem - as many of you already know.

When it DOES get figured out and it works repeatably across designs, those poor cartesian machines ain't gonna be happy about it.

g.

As you say in your signature, "Depta power! Defeat the Cartesian agenda!"

I've used one of the high end machines before for prototyping. The print quality was on par with what my rostock can do, but the difference is that the heated chamber allows bigger prints and eliminates the problem of warping. Plus it has dual extrusion. The high end machines that Stratasys makes are just more capable; their print quality is no better for similar parts in many cases.

But the cost of the machine is 20-50 times more than our printers, and the filament is several hundred dollars per kilogram (even more for better plastics). They are cost prohibitive to almost everyone.

There's a market for tinkerers and hobbyists and most printers available today sit there. There's a market for super duper crazy machines worth tens and hundreds of thousands for the big designs hops.

But there's definitely a market for something in the middle.

A machine with a large print volume, heated build chamber, and multiple hotends can easily be made for 1000 dollars or less. Does anyone want to race me to make one?

I'm at $700 for mine right now, and it has everything on that list except the HBC. Do you consider stock build area large?