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McSlappy wrote:Cheers mate. Yeah this setup made me laugh too

I don't think it's the peek fan - I'm aiming it at the extruder since that's what was getting hot. I do remember someone else mentioning an overheating extruder, so I might look back and find out their solution.

So far it's printing a gorgeous object with no issues at all. I've said it looks promising far too much and been disappointed, I'll see how we go. I'll update this with a status once it's done... Then I'm off for a day fishing, to unwind from this fun.

Hope you catch a big one!

Here are a couple links to a heatsink that mounts to the back of a Nema 17 motor if you might be interested.
The first one is in the United States, the second is in Hong Kong (I think).

http://store.quintessentialuniversalbui ... product=32

http://www.robotdigg.com/product/37/Nem ... r-heatsink

Thanks, that looks nice.

Though after this test, I'm not sure that's the problem either. This is driving me nuts.

The shroud printed almost identically to the last, uncooled version I did. 90% decent then bad. I'll post a pic when I get back, I'm tired. Thanks for your help.

From what I've read, printing PLA with an all-metal hot end can be problematic for the most part.

Personally, I'd use a hotends.com J-Head for PLA and the all-metal for ABS and other high-temp materials.

g.

Were you able to assess the components' alignment while you had it disassembled? How about to test for any points where the filament may be catching or meeting friction while the path was clear and everything cold? I'm curious now as my symptoms were exactly as you're describing and prints came out looking just like yours. Throughout my ordeal, ABS would also print without issue.

One more thing that I imagine would have been mentioned elsewhere in the thread but can't hurt to reiterate: make certain the fan shroud covers the bottom cooling fin or you'll have problems with PLA.

1) what type of fishing do you do? and where are you headed?

2) that setup is really not required and could cause even more problems. The nozzle has to stay hot so the material will flow out of it. Everything above the nozzle and heat block needs to be cold to eliminate the PLA creep and expansion blockage we've been talking about. The fan and shroud that came with the E3D is more than effective enough for that IF you install it correctly AND make sure to turn it on BEFORE heating the hot end and turning it off AFTER the hot end is cooled down.

Looking at your photo again, it does not appear that you have any active cooling directed on your RAMBo card? Just leaving the door open may help but in my case was not sufficient. I've now done enough tests by turning off the fan and experiencing problems, then turning on the RAMBo cooling fan and immediately the problems go away. Turn it off, problems return (sometimes after an hour or more) and then immediately turn on the fan and problem goes away. This problem is easily identified. Put a flag of tape on the EZStruder shaft. Watch it when the skipping occurs - you can hear the skip. If the flag rotates in backwards (counterclockwise) 5-10° or so, I would wager your stepper driver on the RAMBo is overheating. Cool it and that does not happen.

It is difficult to tell from reading your descriptions if you are being painstakingly systematic in your tests. I would recommend:

1) go fishing, relax, clear your head of this nonsense!

when you return and are ready:

2) get rid of the shroud and big fan
3) make sure the stock shroud is installed and positioned so it covers the lower most fin
3) turn on the fan
4) heat up to 190°C or so for PLA
5) test if you can extrude into air
- if not, you have a blockage in the hot end - probably from earlier ineffective cooling, allowing the PLA to expand and melt creep up the cold end. Clean it out of this is the case, will require disassembly of the hot / cold end.
- if you can extrude into air, then make sure to have a cooling fan directed at the component side of the RAMBo - towards the stepper drivers. You could use your big fan for that, open the door and direct the fan onto the RAMBo

[NOTE - you also mentioned that when you get this blockage that if you switch to ABS you can extrude into air? If this is the case you might be able to salvage without taking apart the hot end. Simply go ahead and heat up (with fan on) and remove the PLA out the top. Then replace with ABS and extrude 10mm or so to force the ABS to start to push the PLA out the nozzle. Once you see the PLA start to come out, step up the temp to your ABS temperature and keep extruding into air until all the PLA is replaced by ABS. Using a different color helps with this. If you can do this, you have a completely clear path for the filament and have removed any blockage from PLA. I am guessing you won't be able to do this though, that the PLA blockage will prevent the ABS from extruding.]

6) now print a part that you might have had troubles with - apparently the fan shroud
7) do not turn off the cold end fan until after the hot end cools to about 50°C - it is so easy to overlook this and the step 3) and this WILL lead to blocking if you are unlucky.


What happens? report back.

"1) go fishing, relax, clear your head of this nonsense!"
Absolutely the best advice I've heard all morning...to bad it's 16 degrees-feels like 1 degree outside. I am so ready for spring

Me too! We got a bit more snow last night. This has just been a crazy winter here (and all over).

I find when I'm out on the stream, fly rod in hand, the world disappears. It is me, the water, an occasional fish, and tranquility. The best therapy a man can afford!

geneb wrote:From what I've read, printing PLA with an all-metal hot end can be problematic for the most part.

Personally, I'd use a hotends.com J-Head for PLA and the all-metal for ABS and other high-temp materials.

g.

I've had 24+ hour pla prints on my e3d without a hint of a problem.

me too and I am running it in production - I've produced over 500 of these (each has 2 parts):

[img]http://mhackney.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v92 ... 6198-3.jpg[/img]

and the ONLY problem I've had turned out to be overheating the drivers on my RAMBo. AND, in all fairness, I have my RAMBo mounted in a non-stock way:

[img]http://mhackney.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v92 ... 4600-3.jpg[/img]

It is pushed back into the corner of the compartment, not on the bay door. It is very possible that this mounting does not provide for effective convection cooling but a small 40mm fan does the trick and I'm chugging away printing these in 14 different colors and shipping them all over the world.

I've used J-heads, every version of the stock hot end and several other hot ends (not the Buddashnozzle though) and the E3D is superior to all of these for PLA from my experience.

cope413 wrote:

geneb wrote:From what I've read, printing PLA with an all-metal hot end can be problematic for the most part.

Personally, I'd use a hotends.com J-Head for PLA and the all-metal for ABS and other high-temp materials.

g.

I've had 24+ hour pla prints on my e3d without a hint of a problem.

I've also not had a single problem with PLA since resolving the issue I was having that was related to machining. So, um, I haven't had a problem since I stopped having problems...

Nor I and I print almost exclusively in PLA. McSlappy, I haven't mined through all of the suggestions, but I would throw out increasing your temp another 5 to 10 degrees. The small melt zone of the E3D makes it appear as though it is working well at lower levels when the printer is moving slower and the heated bed is increasing the temperature of it's immediate environment. As it gets higher/further from the bed and the speed increases, it is more difficult for the hotend to keep up and eventually the temperature drops to a point where the resistance caused in extrusion is greater than the extruder is capable of overcoming.

MSURunner wrote:Nor I and I print almost exclusively in PLA. McSlappy, I haven't mined through all of the suggestions, but I would throw out increasing your temp another 5 to 10 degrees. The small melt zone of the E3D makes it appear as though it is working well at lower levels when the printer is moving slower and the heated bed is increasing the temperature of it's immediate environment. As it gets higher/further from the bed and the speed increases, it is more difficult for the hotend to keep up and eventually the temperature drops to a point where the resistance caused in extrusion is greater than the extruder is capable of overcoming.

To that end, I would add, don't be afraid to try bumping it 10-15C. I've printed MatterHackers PLA at 215C with excellent results. As long as your layer cooling is good, there are no issues. In fact, you can print faster with the higher temps.

Firstly, thanks guys for all the help you're giving me on this.

Cleveralias wrote:Were you able to assess the components' alignment while you had it disassembled? How about to test for any points where the filament may be catching or meeting friction while the path was clear and everything cold? I'm curious now as my symptoms were exactly as you're describing and prints came out looking just like yours. Throughout my ordeal, ABS would also print without issue.

One more thing that I imagine would have been mentioned elsewhere in the thread but can't hurt to reiterate: make certain the fan shroud covers the bottom cooling fin or you'll have problems with PLA.

I did take particular care when pulling it apart to note any possible differences in alignment. It was pretty hard to seem much with filament in there, but I took some shots just after the initial disassembly. Perhaps I'm interpreting the nice even filament rings, but it looks pretty awesomely aligned.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/w2osePE.jpg?1[/img]

This shows the nozzle, it's a bad shot and very blurry, but it had a perfectly symmetrical filament ring surrounding the hole, which I assumed meant that the parts were aligned the same. This may be a wildly incorrect assumption though!
[img]http://i.imgur.com/yySwANo.jpg?1[/img]

It was late and I'm not sure whether excitement or frustration kept me from actually putting a small drill bit down the heat break and nozzle to see if they aligned, but I didn't I did however take a shot of the PLA freshly removed after an unsuccesful run, and here's the 'melt profile' that it shows pretty consistently from removed PLA - does that look too asymmetrical?
Could anyone else try this with their e3d and see if you're getting this sort of melt profile?
Sorry for the blurry pic again
[img]http://i.imgur.com/CUR1UB2.jpg?1[/img]

mhackney wrote:1) what type of fishing do you do? and where are you headed?

I am not really what you'd call a fisherman. I don't even own any rods or tackle... However my bro is pretty into it and took me out off the coast with Barramundi Bob, from SEQFA (they have a fishing show on a local station in Brisbane, and also YouTube I guess) our aim was to catch some snapper, but it was a quiet day. I did manage to score this flathead, 54cm, which is probably the biggest flathead I've ever caught, so that was nice. I didn't feel like filleting it so I let it go. Here's a pic of me and my flathead. (My face is obscured not because of privacy, but because I'm just really freaking hideous looking)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/8Rm5GQL.jpg?1[/img]

I've yet to try fly fishing, a shame really, I lived in Colorado for a long time and there's some primo fly fishing around there... (I lived in the same town that Scott flyrods and some other fly fishing brand were based). Oh well, one day! I'm not even sure where to fly fish around here...


2) that setup is really not required and could cause even more problems. The nozzle has to stay hot so the material will flow out of it. Everything above the nozzle and heat block needs to be cold to eliminate the PLA creep and expansion blockage we've been talking about. The fan and shroud that came with the E3D is more than effective enough for that IF you install it correctly AND make sure to turn it on BEFORE heating the hot end and turning it off AFTER the hot end is cooled down.[/quote]

Yes I agree, this setup was deliberately ridiculous in an attempt to test cooling on the extruder motor and RAMBO, I have never doubted the effectiveness of the e3d hot-end fan.
The upper fan didn't really wash onto the hot-end while it was printing, it just focused on the extruder motor. The lower fan was angled so that the top of it blew a nice stiff breeze into the door and over the rambo. The plastic shield just prevented this fan from washing heat from the bed and head as it ran. I did check to make sure neither fan was interfering with the hot-end as it ran - and despite my massive fans, it was fairly calm where the print head ran.
I am using an ABS reprint of the shroud which came with the hot-end (mine was much smoother than the one shipped with it), it's mounted nicely flush with the lower fin and a decent breeze washes over all of the fins. Even the lower fin is barely warm when running with just this stock shroud fan. I've wired it into the 12v output on the board so that it turns on as soon as I switch on the machine, so it's on all the time really.
Here's the actual setup I've been running (I don't normally have all these silly big fans pointing at it)
[img]http://i.imgur.com/pZbOfo2.jpg?1[/img]

mhackney wrote:What happens? report back.

I will test your suggestions (and others) in the morning, I just wanted to get back to everyone with where I'm up to. I'm a bit sunburned and totally exhausted from a day at sea.

I really appreciate everyone's patience with me, and also encouraged by the PLA users. I believe the results I've seen from people using it with PLA - it's really the majority reason that I got it, so I'll get back on it in the morning and see what I can test. Once I do get it running with PLA consistently I'll see if I can convince you to share your PLA settings with me - those things have awesome quality (whatever they are).

mhackney wrote:Looking at your photo again, it does not appear that you have any active cooling directed on your RAMBo card? Just leaving the door open may help but in my case was not sufficient. I've now done enough tests by turning off the fan and experiencing problems, then turning on the RAMBo cooling fan and immediately the problems go away. Turn it off, problems return (sometimes after an hour or more) and then immediately turn on the fan and problem goes away. This problem is easily identified. Put a flag of tape on the EZStruder shaft. Watch it when the skipping occurs - you can hear the skip. If the flag rotates in backwards (counterclockwise) 5-10° or so, I would wager your stepper driver on the RAMBo is overheating. Cool it and that does not happen.

I have run the printer with:
- The door closed. Problematic
- The door open. Problematic
- The door open and the large floor fan blowing into the door and over the RAMBo. Problematic

mhackney wrote:It is difficult to tell from reading your descriptions if you are being painstakingly systematic in your tests.

I'm not being painstakingly systematic, I need to be.

mhackney wrote: I would recommend:

1) go fishing, relax, clear your head of this nonsense!

Done.

mhackney wrote:when you return and are ready:

2) get rid of the shroud and big fan
3) make sure the stock shroud is installed and positioned so it covers the lower most fin
3) turn on the fan
4) heat up to 190°C or so for PLA
5) test if you can extrude into air
- if not, you have a blockage in the hot end - probably from earlier ineffective cooling, allowing the PLA to expand and melt creep up the cold end. Clean it out of this is the case, will require disassembly of the hot / cold end.
- if you can extrude into air, then make sure to have a cooling fan directed at the component side of the RAMBo - towards the stepper drivers. You could use your big fan for that, open the door and direct the fan onto the RAMBo

[NOTE - you also mentioned that when you get this blockage that if you switch to ABS you can extrude into air? If this is the case you might be able to salvage without taking apart the hot end. Simply go ahead and heat up (with fan on) and remove the PLA out the top. Then replace with ABS and extrude 10mm or so to force the ABS to start to push the PLA out the nozzle. Once you see the PLA start to come out, step up the temp to your ABS temperature and keep extruding into air until all the PLA is replaced by ABS. Using a different color helps with this. If you can do this, you have a completely clear path for the filament and have removed any blockage from PLA. I am guessing you won't be able to do this though, that the PLA blockage will prevent the ABS from extruding.]

6) now print a part that you might have had troubles with - apparently the fan shroud
7) do not turn off the cold end fan until after the hot end cools to about 50°C - it is so easy to overlook this and the step 3) and this WILL lead to blocking if you are unlucky.


What happens? report back.

2. I'm running the recommended / included shroud for the e3d (my nicer printed one)
3. Check. See Pic.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/FoMj6OM.jpg?2[/img]
3. Check. It runs 100% when printer is turned on.
4. 190, check.
5. Once it reached 190 I extruded it into air fine at 100 speed and 50 speed. I extruded 50mm each time. I left it idle while I took a photo and wrote some of this reply and now it wont extrude. I just now went to video it, pressed extrude and it extruded. Gah... I decided to test again, and it failed, here's the video.
Bear in mind that this is actually stalling the extruder - normally the extruder continues turning without reversing and just strips the filament with the teeth on the shaft.
View My Video

I'm repeating at 200 degrees
4. 200. Check
5. No extrusion, more extruder skipping (not stripping)

210 degrees
4. 210. Check
5. No extrusion.

I know from experience with this PLA and nozzle that even 210 is too high to print at really - it's way too runny.
I tried manually reversing the filament (releaseing the extuder spring) and forwarding it, there definitely is 'something' catching it. I am reminded of Cleveralias mentioning a similar problem and having some alignment/bur issue within the e3d. I will tear it down once more and test for misalignment more carefully.

Firstly, that is one seriously cool looking flag on your extruder - beats my piece of masking tape!

Ok, if you extruded into air, stopped for a minute and then it won't extrude and then did and then didn't is very odd! I almost think you have some sort of snag somewhere in the filament path that is catching. Sounds like you can feel something too. It may not be in the hot end alignment, it may be the Bowden connector at the EZStruder or even the path through the exit hold of the EZStuder.

Do some tests with the bowden disconnected from the hot end so the filament is just coming out he end of the tube/ connector. Now do you extrude into air a few times, wait, extrude, etc. Do that a few times and see if the filament is snagging or not. If it is, that isolates the problem definitively to the EZStuder/Bowdend/Coupler path. If not, it is not deterministic in that back pressure on the filament when actually extruding could be contributing to a snag at the extruder. You could test this the same way but put back pressure on the filament as it exits the bowden tube, a bit trick but you might find something.

It has been documented that some of the E3D hotends have a lip at the connection of the heatbreak pipe and the cold end.
This lip has caused the problem that he is describing and I think it was Flateric who first documented this lip.

Yes I think it was Flateric. My hot end was fine but before installing the E3D I had a slight misalignment at the extruder end that caused a similar problem. I think both ends should be checked. The extruder end is the easiest to check so start there.

cheers,
Michael

In the meantime I pulled the e3d apart again, did some dry tests feeding filament through the heatsink/heat break/heater block/nozzle. I did find a few angles that caused the filament to snag.
I used a 2mm drill bit inserted backwards to determine how much of a lip existed. I did find a minor catch, but nothing major, the drill bit passed through into the nozzle and bottomed out.
Just to be safe, I used the drill bit, tip first, and ran it through the heat break / heat block and into the nozzle to clear out any potential burs or lips. I was careful to not let the tip of the bit bottom out in the nozzle since I was not sure what the rough surface may do to a print. There was little to no resistance to the drill bit in this process, and I saw no visible shavings.
After reaming carefully around, I inserted filament once more and found no angles that had any catching or snagging.

I reinstalled the head and recalibrated.

The result sadly was the same.

In response to Mhackney, I removed the bowden tube from the top of the e3d, extruded some filament... waited... extruded some more. I tested both 50mms and 100mms speed with no troubles at all. I waited some more and tried again... No problems there.

In removing the filament when it was at 100degrees instead of proper melting temp, I pulled out the filament. I thought it might be of interest to see the melt profile again in case it offers something to the equation. Perhaps it means nothing, but here it it:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/kw8TLFN.jpg?1[/img]

Yes I think it's safe to assume the problem lies within the head itself. Somewhere deep inside the dark depths of the e3d v5... terror awaits...

I put the bowden tube back onto the e3d and tried extruding again. Same problem.

Perhaps my 3mm threaded thermistor is not deep enough to get a reliable reading? Perhaps I need to install a 'normal' thermistor...

I wouldn't mess with the thermistor. Even if it was in the wrong place, it is not going to affect your reading that badly. The plug you pulled out actually looks pretty good. The swollen part is from the melt zone, then there is a crisp drop to normal filament diameter in the cold zone.

Did you check the PTC fitting and bowden tube inserted into it?

You can determine if the thermistor is giving reliable readings with a thermocouple stuck into the E3D all the way to the nozzle and compare it's readings to
those of the thermistor. I've said it many times but I will say it again, anyone having a 3D printer should have a thermocouple meter. The meter is the only
way to know if the readings from the thermistor are accurate. If you don't have one then please get one. It is IMHO the most important piece of calibration
equipment. If you have no detectable lip inside your E3D and if you have the shroud on properly and covering the bottom fin on the E3D and if you have a
fan on the shroud that is on at all times the E3D is warm then there is no reason that you should be having all these problems. Others print PLA all day long
with an E3D. Have you ever verified the temperature shown by the firmware is accurate?

mhackney wrote:I wouldn't mess with the thermistor. Even if it was in the wrong place, it is not going to affect your reading that badly. The plug you pulled out actually looks pretty good. The swollen part is from the melt zone, then there is a crisp drop to normal filament diameter in the cold zone.

Did you check the PTC fitting and bowden tube inserted into it?

Not sure what you mean exactly, but the PTC was on both ends when I ran the tests of the tube disconnected from the hot-end. The fit of the PTC is nice and snug on the bowden tube and I've tried running the printer with the bowden tube pushed all the way into the hot-end as well as having it just flush with the bottom of the PTC connector. Both produce the same results.
I'm fairly certain they intend for the bowden tube to be pushed all the way into the hot end until it bottoms out which is how I run it.

Eaglezsoar wrote:You can determine if the thermistor is giving reliable readings with a thermocouple stuck into the E3D all the way to the nozzle and compare it's readings to
those of the thermistor. I've said it many times but I will say it again, anyone having a 3D printer should have a thermocouple meter. The meter is the only
way to know if the readings from the thermistor are accurate. If you don't have one then please get one. It is IMHO the most important piece of calibration
equipment. If you have no detectable lip inside your E3D and if you have the shroud on properly and covering the bottom fin on the E3D and if you have a
fan on the shroud that is on at all times the E3D is warm then there is no reason that you should be having all these problems. Others print PLA all day long
with an E3D. Have you ever verified the temperature shown by the firmware is accurate?

Something like this?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-Ther ... 4acbe89389

Agreed, I should not be having these problems and I expect to be printing PLA all day long too!

I'm not sure how to verify the temp shown by the firmware is accurate... I switched to a new thermistor in case the old one was the problem... My idle head-temp lines up perfectly with the bed idle temp, not sure if that's helpful.

The one you found is fine but ships from Hong Kong or China.
This link is for one sold in Australia so you won't have to wait so long: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digital-Ther ... 1c26fa54c3

Ordered it. You're right, it's a handy tool to have, and I've wanted one anyway.